Chefelf.com Night Life: why the jedi can't be trusted... - Chefelf.com Night Life

Jump to content

Star Wars Fan Convention

  • (2 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2

why the jedi can't be trusted...

#1 User is offline   dougte Icon

  • Henchman
  • Pip
  • Group: Junior Members
  • Posts: 68
  • Joined: 18-June 05
  • Country:United States

Posted 18 June 2005 - 11:41 PM

I found this at a site calledMarginal Revolution

It's about everything that is wrong with the jedi. Interesting....


The core point is that the Jedi are not to be trusted:

1. The Jedi and Jedi-in-training sell out like crazy. Even the evil Count Dooku was once a Jedi knight.

2. What do the Jedi Council want anyway? The Anakin critique of the Jedi Council rings somewhat true... Aren't they a kind of out-of-control Supreme Court, not even requiring Senate approval (with or without filibuster), and heavily armed at that? As I understand it, they vote each other into the office, have license to kill, and seek to control galactic affairs. Talk about unaccountable power used toward secret and mysterious ends.

3. Obi-Wan told Luke scores of lies, including the big whopper that his dad was dead.

4. The Jedi can't even keep us safe.

5. The bad guys have sex and do all the procreating. The Jedi are not supposed to marry, or presumably have children. Not ESS, if you ask me. Anakin gets Natalie Portman; Luke spends two episodes with a perverse and distant crush on his sister Leia, leading only to one chaste kiss.

6. The prophecy was that Anakin (Darth) will restore order and balance to the force. How true this turns out to be. But none of the Jedi can begin to understand what this means. Yes, you have to get rid of the bad guys. But you also have to get rid of the Jedi. The Jedi are, after all, the primary supply source and training ground for the bad guys. Anakin/Darth manages to get rid of both, so he really is the hero of the story. It is also interesting which group of "Jedi" Darth kills first...

7. At the happy ending of "Return of the Jedi", the Jedi no longer control the galaxy. The Jedi Council is not reestablished. Luke, the closest thing to a Jedi representative left, never becomes a formal Jedi. He shows no desire to train other Jedi, and probably expects to spend the rest of his life doing voices for children's cartoons.

8. The core message is that power corrupts, but also that good guys have power too. Our possible safety lies in our humanity, not in our desires to transcend it or wield strange forces to our advantage.



What did Padme say?: "So this is how liberty dies, to thunderous applause."

Addendum: By the way, did I mention that the Jedi are genetically superior supermen with "enhanced blood"? That the rebels' victory party in Episode IV borrows liberally from Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph of the Will"? And that the much-maligned ewoks make perfect sense as an antidote to Jedi fascism?
0

#2 User is offline   Deleted Scene Icon

  • Henchman
  • Pip
  • Group: Junior Members
  • Posts: 56
  • Joined: 20-May 05
  • Country:Nothing Selected

Posted 19 June 2005 - 12:56 AM

The Jedi, as presented in Eps 1-3, are a bunch of morons whom I wouldn't trust to watch my Jiffy-pop popcorn on a stove, much less the galaxy.
0

#3 User is offline   SithAvenger Icon

  • Wow, my avatar changed.
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1,898
  • Joined: 06-June 05
  • Location:Err... here I guess.
  • Interests:The Interests of a Normal Teenager:<br />-Movies<br />-Things that are awesome<br />-Girls<br />-(Good) Tv shows<br />-Doing evil stuff the good way<br />-Videogames<br />-Hangin' with my friends
  • Country:Mexico

Posted 19 June 2005 - 01:42 AM

Every single Jedi is now an enemy of the movie-goers.....
Sorry, you won't be seeing a smartass sig here. Try with the next poster.
0

#4 User is offline   diligent_d Icon

  • Soothsayer
  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 541
  • Joined: 16-May 05
  • Country:Canada

Posted 19 June 2005 - 03:58 AM

Heh, yeah the Jedi in the Prequels could pretty much fuck up a cup of coffee.
0

#5 User is offline   WalkingCarpet Icon

  • Soothsayer
  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 624
  • Joined: 16-June 05
  • Location:Somewhere Across Forever
  • Interests:Puns, irony &amp; sarcasm
  • Country:United Kingdom

Posted 19 June 2005 - 05:49 AM

QUOTE (diligent_d @ Jun 19 2005, 09:58 AM)
Heh, yeah the Jedi in the Prequels could pretty much fuck up a cup of coffee.


Which is hard to take for those of us who grew up wanting to be one!
0

#6 User is offline   Hari Seldon Icon

  • Level Boss
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Junior Members
  • Posts: 361
  • Joined: 10-June 05
  • Location:Coimbra, Portugal
  • Country:Portugal

Posted 19 June 2005 - 05:51 AM

QUOTE (diligent_d @ Jun 19 2005, 08:58 AM)
Heh, yeah the Jedi in the Prequels could pretty much fuck up a cup of coffee.


Oow! Cups of coffee are their specialty!
"I prefer rationalism to atheism. The question of God and other objects-of-faith are outside reason and play no part in rationalism, thus you don't have to waste your time in either attacking or defending."

Isaac Asimov
0

#7 User is offline   Lord Melkor Icon

  • Level Boss
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Junior Members
  • Posts: 335
  • Joined: 11-May 05
  • Country:Poland

Posted 19 June 2005 - 10:32 AM

Qui-Gon was great in TPM. But in AOTC and ROTS Jedi were hardly superheroeses.
0

#8 User is offline   Thracozaag Icon

  • New Cop
  • Group: Junior Members
  • Posts: 45
  • Joined: 14-June 05
  • Country:United States

Posted 19 June 2005 - 10:58 AM

I don't know whether it was more Qui-Gonn or Liam Neeson (I suspect the latter), but he was by far and away the best aspect of PM.

koji
0

#9 User is offline   Lord Melkor Icon

  • Level Boss
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Junior Members
  • Posts: 335
  • Joined: 11-May 05
  • Country:Poland

Posted 19 June 2005 - 01:37 PM

Oh, it might be disappointnment for those Jedi fanboys. But I always liked the Sith more, and they are pretty cool in PT.
0

#10 User is offline   DarthTherion Icon

  • Mini Boss
  • PipPip
  • Group: Junior Members
  • Posts: 141
  • Joined: 05-May 05
  • Country:United States

Posted 20 June 2005 - 01:20 AM

Does it matter that the Jedi in the PT are supposed to represent the order in its very last days, at its absolute nadir, at rock bottom before its destruction?

Does it matter that Qui Gon is supposed to represent everything that the Jedi should be (but are not)?

Does it matter that the Jedi were extremely noble for a thousand generations but that this is not depicted onscreen because it is not particularly relevant to the story?

I guess not.
0

#11 User is offline   jariten Icon

  • making the nature scene
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1,845
  • Joined: 18-August 04
  • Location:in the bin
  • Country:Nothing Selected

Posted 20 June 2005 - 02:07 AM

I think the fact that the Jedi are not SUPERMAN came as a shock to some viewers. Alas...
0

#12 User is offline   julie123 Icon

  • Mini Boss
  • PipPip
  • Group: Junior Members
  • Posts: 139
  • Joined: 25-May 05
  • Country:United Kingdom

Posted 20 June 2005 - 08:44 AM

Quote

1. The Jedi and Jedi-in-training sell out like crazy. Even the evil Count Dooku was once a Jedi knight.


There are 10,000 Jedi in ATOC, but only two Jedi sell out - Count Dooku and Anakin, sounds like a damned good exchange rate to me.

Quote

2. What do the Jedi Council want anyway? The Anakin critique of the Jedi Council rings somewhat true... Aren't they a kind of out-of-control Supreme Court, not even requiring Senate approval (with or without filibuster), and heavily armed at that? As I understand it, they vote each other into the office, have license to kill, and seek to control galactic affairs. Talk about unaccountable power used toward secret and mysterious ends.


It is simple what the Jedi Council want, they want peace. Anakin's critique is false, the Jedi were the galaxy’s guardians of peace and justice, directly sanctioned by and accountable to the Senate's of a 1,000 years. Their services were often called upon by different planets that were under going civil war etc and were sent to the crises' usually by the Senate and not the Jedi Order. Doesn't sound like unaccountable power to me. If they are so out of control and do not require Senate approval, why is Palaptine able to insist that Anakin becomes part of the Jedi Council? Oh and if you are going to start believing the word of a guy who would force choke his pregnant wife and kill unarmed younglings, planet earth really is in trouble

3. Obi-Wan told Luke scores of lies, including the big whopper that his dad was dead.

Actually, he was not lying re his dad. Vader WAS NOT his dad, Anakin was and this is the essential arc of the story. If you believe that Anakin and Vader to be the same person then the story has failed. When Anakin turns to the Sith he throws of his humanity and becomes Vader. Luke redeems Vader ONLY because in saving Luke, Vader turns back to the light and becomes Anakin again. It is George Lucas' manner of story telling that has made a liar out of Obi-Wan.

Quote

4. The Jedi can't even keep us safe.


Who are us? Do you live on a galaxy far, far away?

Quote

5. The bad guys have sex and do all the procreating. The Jedi are not supposed to marry, or presumably have children. Not ESS, if you ask me. Anakin gets Natalie Portman; Luke spends two episodes with a perverse and distant crush on his sister Leia, leading only to one chaste kiss.


Lucas has determined that the Jedi Order are celibate and cannot marry, I fail to see how the Jedi can be blamed for this. Yes, Luke's relationship is perverse, but again, Lucas's story telling is at fault here, not the Jedi.

[QUOTE]6. The prophecy was that Anakin (Darth) will restore order and balance to the force. How true this turns out to be. But none of the Jedi can begin to understand what this means. Yes, you have to get rid of the bad guys. But you also have to get rid of the Jedi. The Jedi are, after all, the primary supply source and training ground for the bad guys. Anakin/Darth manages to get rid of both, so he really is the hero of the story. QUOTE]

The prophecy was not about restoring order but balance to the force. The reason why the Jedi can't understand the prophecy is because George Lucas wrote it. I fail to see why the Jedi should be gotten rid of, they are the good guys and please tell me how 2 rogue Jedi can be claimed to be the primary supply source and training group for the Sith. Just how did those pesky Sith manage regarding a supply source for a 1,000 years without the Jedi?

Anakin/Vader does not get rid of the Jedi, the Jedi are reborn in Luke, hence the title ROTJ. I will not accept Anakin/Vader to be the hero of the story - Anakin could have fulfilled the prophecy without mass murder and mayhem - he could have slain Palpatine when Mace had him pinned down, he choose not to. Billions of non-force users dying so that the force can be bought back into balance, does not make a hero of anyone least of all Anakin/Vader

Quote

7. At the happy ending of "Return of the Jedi", the Jedi no longer control the galaxy. The Jedi Council is not reestablished. Luke, the closest thing to a Jedi representative left, never becomes a formal Jedi. He shows no desire to train other Jedi, and probably expects to spend the rest of his life doing voices for children's cartoons.


The Jedi never controlled the galaxy in the first place, corrupt politicians did. The Jedi Council is not re-established because the film ends but the in notation is that it would be - the Jedi ghosts at the end of the film is like a handing over from one generation to another. Where do you get off saying he never became a formal Jedi? When Luke goes back for more training with Yoda in ROTJ, he assumes that he is already a Jedi because he is told by Yoda that he does not require anymore training. Yoda then tells Luke, that his graduation so to speak is taking on Vader. At the end of ROTJ, Luke cannot have a graduation ceremony because no other Jedi can attend, however, again those Jedi ghosties could be seen as an acknowledgement that Luke passed his test. What do you think the title of Return of the Jedi means if nothing but an acknowledgement by Lucas that the Jedi have returned and they do so in the form of Luke. Finally, Luke can't show any desire to train other Jedi because the film ends on his graduation ceremony but AGAIN the in notation is that the Jedi have been reformed in the body of Luke and he will go on to train future generations to become Jedi.

Quote

8. The core message is that power corrupts, but also that good guys have power too. Our possible safety lies in our humanity, not in our desires to transcend it or wield strange forces to our advantage.


Yes, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely which is why the Jedi tried to take down the Sith Palpatine in ROTS, events proved them right. The Jedi did not try to transcend their humanity because a great deal of them were not human, Yoda comes to mind. Strange forces? They would not be strange forces to a different galaxy than ours, and the Jedi never sought to wield the force to their advantage because they served the light and the force.

Quote

Addendum: By the way, did I mention that the Jedi are genetically superior supermen with "enhanced blood"? That the rebels' victory party in Episode IV borrows liberally from Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph of the Will"? And that the much-maligned ewoks make perfect sense as an antidote to Jedi fascism?


No, you did not but I think you have the wrong side re the fascism thing, I think you mean the Siths here because I might be wrong but I thought The Emperor was a Sith Master and not a Jedi one.
0

#13 User is offline   dougte Icon

  • Henchman
  • Pip
  • Group: Junior Members
  • Posts: 68
  • Joined: 18-June 05
  • Country:United States

Posted 20 June 2005 - 11:57 AM

4. The Jedi can't even keep us safe.

QUOTE
Who are us? Do you live on a galaxy far, far away?


5. The bad guys have sex and do all the procreating. The Jedi are not supposed to marry, or presumably have children. Not ESS, if you ask me. Anakin gets Natalie Portman; Luke spends two episodes with a perverse and distant crush on his sister Leia, leading only to one chaste kiss.

QUOTE
Lucas has determined that the Jedi Order are celibate and cannot marry, I fail to see how the Jedi can be blamed for this. Yes, Luke's relationship is perverse, but again, Lucas's story telling is at fault here, not the Jedi.



Isn't it weird how one second you're saying things like, "do YOU live in a galaxy far...." in order to debunk his observations, and then a second later you're acting like the Jedi are really alive? "Lucas's story telling is at fault here, NOT THE JEDI." We can only infer things about the Jedi through Lucas's writings, and with the first three flicks it appears as though most of them are bumbling idiots (And that's hard for me to admit since I remember asking my mom for a lightsabre for Christmas as a kid.)

This post has been edited by dougte: 20 June 2005 - 12:04 PM

0

#14 User is offline   julie123 Icon

  • Mini Boss
  • PipPip
  • Group: Junior Members
  • Posts: 139
  • Joined: 25-May 05
  • Country:United Kingdom

Posted 20 June 2005 - 12:59 PM

QUOTE (dougte @ Jun 20 2005, 04:57 PM)
4. The Jedi can't even keep us safe.
5. The bad guys have sex and do all the procreating. The Jedi are not supposed to marry, or presumably have children. Not ESS, if you ask me. Anakin gets Natalie Portman; Luke spends two episodes with a perverse and distant crush on his sister Leia, leading only to one chaste kiss.
    Isn't it weird how one second you're saying things like, "do YOU live in a galaxy far...." in order to debunk his observations, and then a second later you're acting like the Jedi are really alive? "Lucas's story telling is at fault here, NOT THE JEDI." We can only infer things about the Jedi through Lucas's writings, and with the first three flicks it appears as though most of them are bumbling idiots (And that's hard for me to admit since I remember asking my mom for a lightsabre for Christmas as a kid.)



Isn't it weird how you have made the rest of my points valid by only nic picking the above? Isn't it weird how my pointing out to you that the us that you speak of in your post indicates that you are living in a galaxy far, far away because this is the only galaxy the Jedi exist in, actually makes it sound that it is you and not myself who consider the Jedi to be really alive? Isn't it weird how I can point out that Luke's romance with his sister is disturbing because of the manner in which Lucas tells his story but you go on to say that we can only infer things about the Jedi through Lucas's writing? Isn't it weird to you that Lucas' 3 flicks have indicated to you that the Jedi are bumbling idiots yet at the same time, you consider them a dangerous shadowy organisation? Isn't it weird to you that most sane people consider the Sith to be the fascist in the OT but you consider the Ewoks to be Jedi-fascist liberators?
0

#15 User is offline   dougte Icon

  • Henchman
  • Pip
  • Group: Junior Members
  • Posts: 68
  • Joined: 18-June 05
  • Country:United States

Posted 20 June 2005 - 04:06 PM

QUOTE (julie123 @ Jun 20 2005, 12:59 PM)
Isn't it weird how you have made the rest of my points valid by only nic picking the above?   Isn't it weird how my pointing out to you that the us that you speak of in your post indicates that you are living in a galaxy far, far away because this is the only galaxy the Jedi exist in, actually makes it sound that it is you and not myself who consider the Jedi to be really alive? Isn't it weird how I can point out that Luke's romance with his sister is disturbing because of the manner in which Lucas tells his story but you go on to say that we can only infer things about the Jedi through Lucas's writing?  Isn't it weird to you that Lucas' 3 flicks have indicated to you that the Jedi are bumbling idiots yet at the same time, you consider them a dangerous shadowy organisation?  Isn't it weird to you that most sane people consider the Sith to be the  fascist in the OT but you consider the Ewoks to be Jedi-fascist liberators?


Isn't it weird how you can't read, because if you could you'd see that NONE of those were my observations, but observations from another website that I linked to in my original post?

On top of everything else, the post is supposed to be kinda funny. It points out that through Lucas's horrible writing the once-great Jedi have been downgraded to (for the most part) a bunch of whiny losers who can't tell Palpatine is evil when evil oozes from his very being. Read some of the "reasons to hate" written by this site's creator and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Also, the "us" the original author spoke of was just fictional "people in general"--which was pretty self-evident. But if you want to play stupid games, it was Lucas who put Steven Spielberg's ET in Attack of the Clones...so, you could say that Earth exists within the Star Wars universe. Hence, the Jedi can not protect "us."

It's not my fault that the Sith have become ten times cooler than the Jedi...blame Lucas. After seeing these new flicks I'd turn to the dark side in a heartbeat.

This post has been edited by dougte: 20 June 2005 - 04:15 PM

0

  • (2 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2


Fast Reply

  • Decrease editor size
  • Increase editor size