[CowboyCurtis]

1) Jedi can sense people (surprise!). Anakin Skywalker tracked Zam down while she was fleeing in a moving vehicle. If someone could follow you when you're in a moving vehicle, there is no point in running. The chase is over; you've been outmatched. It's time to think of a different strategy. Zam does so.

If we're going to continue that line of thinking, then why didn't Obi and Annie continue the pursuit when they saw Jango Fett take off? They had the speeder there! They could've tracked him! His jetpacks can't be any faster than a speeder! The inconsistencies continue to pile up!

(As an aside, it's really unfair to say, "The Jedi can't sense Sidious, therefore they can't sense anybody!" It was Xenduck, in fact, who suggested an answer to this issue in another thread -- Jedi can sense a person's "force signature," but only after they've had contact with that person. Since no Jedi has ever encountered Darth Sidious, no Jedi can compare Palpatine's "force signature" to that of the dark lord. There are also several theories running around about clouding the force and the "veil of the dark side," but we'll not get into that now)

AOTC: Yoda says, "The dark side I sense in you, Dooku..." Still can't detect the "dark side" in Palpatine. Inconsistency.

2) Shapeshifting. Zam is a "changeling" and is an example of a new alien race that we encounter in the PT. Her abilities are useless in the situation she's in -- that is, when facing two Jedi Knights.

Then it was an unnecessary addition. No where else is it used--there is no POINT to this addition!! NONE!! Who gives a fig if she's facing Jedi or not. If you're going to have it in the movie, use it, otherwise people will question it... ipso facto, bad filmmaking.

3) Nowhere does anyone say at any time that there is only one exit to the club. Where did we get that idea from? (I consulted the script at imdb.com....I couldn't find any reference to the existence of only one exit)

Then Zam is the bigger idiot than I thought. Very well, I'll drop the more than one exit argument, but it still doesn't make Zam any more intelligent or clever.

4) Was it Xenduck who made the point in this thread that Sidious actually wants Zam to be caught and *intends* the Jedi to follow the trail of the bounty hunter and discover the clone army? I don't remember, but if so, you are correct!

What an exceedingly, unnecessary, complicated plot that hinges on so many little things to get what he wants! Bogus! I thought Lucas' stories were suppose to be simple to understand, and if you say they're complicated, then they're complicated to the point of creating misunderstanding in the audience members, and if that's the case then Lucas has failed! He has failed as a storyteller!

anything can potentially change a plot. shapeshifting could have vastly effected the outcome, except that in this scenario, it was useless.

It was useless ANYWHERE!!! At what point is it used to Zam's advantage!? NEVER! Again, a "detail" that causes only confusion in the viewers. Again, bad storytelling. It's like someone telling a joke and then telling all these other little details to "spice it up" then deliver the punchline and no one is sure what it was relating to.

And you may say, "Oh, all of your criticisms are only nit-picks," but I'm sorry, it's like a foundation for a house. If you start pulling out the little bricks, pretty soon you'll have so many holes that house isn't going to stand anymore!

And I'm a lover of the original Star Wars; the UNMOLESTED Star Wars. The PTs are betrayal to them.

Lucas needed to distill his ideas, he needed to bounce them off someone more competent, he needed to edit. He needed to rewrite, he needed to reference, cross reference---he failed!!! As a writer in general!

Stop giving Lucas a pass on these films. We critique plenty of other filmmakers. If you're going to give him a pass, you had better give them all a pass on their films as well, even the worse ones.

This post has been edited by CowboyCurtis: 13 July 2005 - 02:03 PM

[CowboyCurtis]

Oh, and I meant to ad this:

cause i love star wars!

"So love has blinded you..."

[superg]

The thing that is really difficult to swallow about the explainations given in this forum is just that. They're explainations. When I go to a movie, I don't think I shouild have to break out a booklet of star wars explainations to illogical events just so that everything makes sense! There shouldn't have to be an explaination of why something happened by the end of the movie unless it is a cliff hanger. But these issues are never explained by the film itself. That's why they are flaws.

[xenduck]

the only discrepancies i see here, curtis, is the way you and i percieve the same material. sometimes its hard to believe we're talkn about the same movie. i have to say i was not at all confused when i watched the movie; have you considered that the problem is not with the movie, but with the watcher? i mean, take this for example:

"What an exceedingly, unnecessary, complicated plot that hinges on so many little things to get what he wants! Bogus! I thought Lucas' stories were suppose to be simple to understand"
and
"AOTC: Yoda says, "The dark side I sense in you, Dooku..." Still can't detect the "dark side" in Palpatine. Inconsistency."

what troubles me is that you criticize certain details while ignoring others. both these issues are intertwined and quite simple. in AOTC, it is palpatine who suggests that the jedi protect padme, at that point, there is an extreme close-up of yoda giving palps a suspicious sideways glance. that shows the audience that yoda does sense a distrubance around palpatine. that suspicion is the audience's clue that the chancellor has alterior motives for assigning the jedi. the alterior motives are then revealed when anakin remarks that "investigation is implied". that seems obvious to me; maybe im wrong but thats the impression i got and the movie works for me.

and again, i have to express that the shapeshifting was pretty pointless, i feel it was meant to add intriuge to zam's character. but when did ki-adi-mundi's head prove advantagous? or when did jango's armor save him? when did yaeral poof use his extra arms? all of which COULD have been important, but it wasnt, it was a matter of making the universe diverse. time shouldnt be wasted developing the specific abilities of side characters.

i have to say that bashers have as much trouble trying to explain their grieveances as gushers do trying to answer them.
at this point id like to survey the crowd, how many people here are actively bashing a diffirent movie on another forum?

This post has been edited by xenduck: 14 July 2005 - 12:27 AM

[CowboyCurtis]

That's right, it's the viewer's fault... never EVER the one who tells the story. He's never at fault, is he?

So, if I didn't "get" PT, then tell me why was it so easy to "get" the original trilogy? It's so hard to believe these were crafted by the same man.

And you're never at fault either, are you. Seems to me you're over-intellectualizing these films, and filling in holes when---that's not your place to do so. Your having to explain everything in these films does not make it better---it makes it worse.

And who cares if people are actively bashing films in other topics or not...


This'll eventually devolve into a pissing contest anyway.

Enough.

This post has been edited by CowboyCurtis: 14 July 2005 - 10:09 AM

[xenduck]

when i said the problem could be with the watcher, what i meant was, since i love the movie and you hate it, odds are i've seen it more times. ive watched ep II roughly twenty times, so its natual that i would be more familiar and comfortable with all the little details. i certainly couldnt have caried on this disscusion if id only seen the movie once or twice. there is something in the star wars movies that keeps me comming back and each time i watch any of them, i find that, as science fiction they are bunk, but as epic adventure they are astounding.

[DarthTherion]

in AOTC, it is palpatine who suggests that the jedi protect padme, at that point, there is an extreme close-up of yoda giving palps a suspicious sideways glance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow, that's actually true. I didn't believe it until I actually looked at the dvd. There really is a close-up of Yoda looking suspicious. This raises a host of interesting questions about what Yoda knows and doesn't know about the Sith threat.

My interpretation has always been that sensing the dark side in another is only possible when the target is using the force. Yoda senses the dark side in Dooku after the Sith lord hurls objects at him; Vader senses "the Force is strong with this one" as he focuses on Luke's ship as the boy is using the Force.

Vader *doesn't* sense Force potential in Leia or in Luke before that moment in the battle of Yavin. None of the Jedi sense the dark side in Palpatine -- Palps never uses the Force in their presence. He uses good ol'fashioned manipulation. I think *that* is the meaning behind Yoda's suspicious glance.

As a closing note, I agree that points like these could have been better explained in the movies, and the series would be stronger if things like this were made more explicit. However, I'm glad we're able to have interesting discussions like this.

[xenduck]

getting a little off topic, but i agree, darththerion. in my ancient post about midichlorians i made two postulates about the ability to sense force powers:

postulate #1) jedi can use the force to sense all living things around them. they can increase this radius by concentrating harder. the larger the radius, the more life-forms included. the more life-forms sensed, the more difficult it is to spot a particular individual.

postulate #2) jedi cannot sense latent force abilities. when a jedi calls upon the force to perform an action, the effort sends out ripples through the force. the greater dependency on the force to perform the action, the larger and more detectable the ripples will be. however, without training in jedi arts, no one can call upon the force heavily enough to send out detectable ripples.

so a third postulate would say that one force-wielder could practice sensing others latent abilities and get better at it. while another force-wielder could practice masking his/her power, even when its in use.

so the way i see it is that yoda, when addressing dooku, is stating the obvious(by then the audience is aware of dooku's affiliations); as a chide meant to appeal to dooku's former training and moral beliefs. compare: "the darkside i sense in you." to "why do i sense we've picked up another pathetic lifeform?" i dont think they're acctual senseing anything in particular through the force, just there own natural insight. but if you dont like that idea, consider that yoda raised/trained dooku and would know him very well; perhaps that personal history allows yoda to look deeper into dooku than into palpatine.

further, even if yoda could sense the darkside in palpatine (the jedi seem to distrust him immediatly, certainly by ep III) he cant come out and accuse the supreme chancellor of being a sith lord. that would be like the pope accusing G.W. of eating jew babies.

This post has been edited by xenduck: 16 July 2005 - 12:56 PM

[Despondent]

I hope you eventually use all this for a term paper, something worthwhile. Obviously you've spent more effort investigating and reasoning than most everyone. Including you know who.


Xenduck, there's this guy who wrote a book which ties together Hundreds of Beatles references, going back to 1965 (The Walrus was Paul), to explain the "Paul is Dead" rumor. You guys would get along real well.

The Great Beatle Death Clues

[xenduck]

oh its true, i do love to analyze. i have to admit, i use this forum as practice for my (future) writing career. and i without so many critics i never would have investigated or reasoned nearly as much. as a result, i love star wars all the more! in the end, i wouldnt attempt to be so tedious and thorough if you bashers werent so wonderfully antagonistic. i truly appreciate that.