[elvenpianist]

..which makes me wonder why Luke didn't know you could block force lighting with a saber; Yoda should've told him about that, heh.

As much as I hate to defend GL, technically Yoda never found out that Mace had reflected Palp's force lightning back at him so he had good reason for not telling Luke about that trick in the OT.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, they had the video-thingie of when Anakin pledges himself to Sidieous's service though, right? So they would have the video-thingie of the whole Mace duel as well, I would think.

Not a plot hole, but it bothers me- Lucas forgot the third 6 on the "order number".. 66 just doesn't cut it, heh.
(it'd have been REALLY funny if the order number was 42...)

[DarthTherion]

Training both children from birth was not an option. Vader and the Emperor would have sensed this going on -- and there is no way that Obi-wan and Yoda would risk having the Skywalker children fall into the hands of the Empire.

So they split them up and have them raised as normal children until they're old enough.

Hmmm, no one responded to this:

I read a theory somehwere online that perhaps the Force grants Luke and Leia different aspects of their mother. Leia receives images of her mother, and she will go on to have children strong in the Force, becoming a mother herself; Luke unconsciously retains Padme's dying words, "There is still good in him," which he speaks in ROTJ. He redeems Vader. The Force gives them memories that guide them in their destiny.

Not worthy of a reply?

I admit that originally it was planned that Leia lived with her mother for several years. But the lines in ROTJ are vague enough that they could signify anything -- real memories, force visions, etc. And "very young" was not clearly defined, either.

So, when it came time to make ROTS, Lucas made what he thought was a compelling ending. C'mon, Natalie Portman can't act...would you really have wanted her character to *live*??

I can't imagine letting such a minor point interfere with my enjoyment of a movie.

[Storm]

Darth Therion, you have made a lot of great points. Keep it up.

[CptSeaMonkey]

"Training both children from birth was not an option. Vader and the Emperor would have sensed this going on -- and there is no way that Obi-wan and Yoda would risk having the Skywalker children fall into the hands of the Empire."

Your logic is absurd, there's "risk" in any strategy they choose.

Strategy #1: Take the kids to a remote world somewhere, like Dagobah. Train them both, then attack with all four Jedi while everyone's still alive.

Strategy #2: Take two kids, split them up. Don't talk to either for 20 years. Start training one when the other is being tortured by Darth Vader. Send a half-trained Luke against Vader and the Emperor, a battle he has NO CHANCE of winning.

Tell me, which one has more risk?

"So they split them up and have them raised as normal children until they're old enough."

Old enough ... for what? They both die before they can train Leia.

[Deleted Scene]

I admit that originally it was planned that Leia lived with her mother for several years. But the lines in ROTJ are vague enough that they could signify anything -- real memories, force visions, etc. And "very young" was not clearly defined, either.

What's vague is what Leia remembers, not "why" or "how" she remembers it. And "very young" sure as hell doesn't mean 10 second old newborn.

So, when it came time to make ROTS, Lucas made what he thought was a compelling ending. C'mon, Natalie Portman can't act...would you really have wanted her character to *live*??

Lucas either screwed up or didn't feel like following the original story he laid out for himself. It's really that simple.

I can't imagine letting such a minor point interfere with my enjoyment of a movie.

If you consider this a minor point, it's probably the reason no one responded to your earlier point. It has been recognized that there's a difference between overlooking the small stuff and coming up with every excuse in the book to fix what Lucas clearly fucked up.

[DarthTherion]

Your logic is absurd, there's "risk" in any strategy they choose.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Everything in life is a risk, but it's important to remember that there are levels of risk. Yoda and Obi-wan do not want to take the (very real) chance of Vader and the Emperor sensing the Jedi training of two children strong in the Force.

If they had sensed the children training, they could have located them, attacked, and taken Vader's children for themselves.

They chose a much more sensible route of allowing the children to grow, letting time pass so that Vader and the Emperor would forget that there was even a shadow of a chance that the children had survived, and then...

Leave it to the will of the Force.

As it turned out, that's exactly what happened. Events came together perfectly and led to the resolution in ROTJ.

How could you doubt the Force?!

Oh, and presumably Luke's training in ESB was not sensed because not only were Vader and the Emperor weaker after 20 years, Luke's older age made it more difficult for him to master the Force; thus it was almost impossible to pinpoint the disturbance in the Force from across the galaxy.

[DarthTherion]

If you consider this a minor point, it's probably the reason no one responded to your earlier point. It has been recognized that there's a difference between overlooking the small stuff and coming up with every excuse in the book to fix what Lucas clearly fucked up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've already acknowledged that Lucas changed his original story. It's something that he does alot in the Star Wars saga. Who could forget this memorable inconsistancy:

"A Jedi named Darth Vader...betrayed and murdered your father."
"No...I am your father."

Planned from the beginning? I think not.

Yes, I understand people get upset when they have a clearly visualized PT in their heads, and then Lucas comes along and screws it up by doing exactly the opposite of what dialogue in the OT leads us to think. And I know it's different here, because we're going backwards with the PT, not forwards, and that the answers to everything are not spelled out in the movies.

But, c'mon....

He took artistic license to give the story a more compelling ending. You think Natalie Portman's acting would have given a better ending with her character alive? Really?

Natalie: Anakin's gone...oh, he's broken my heart. My poor, poor, wooden heart....

For the record, "memories" are usually more than just images.

[Sagacity]

"Artistic license"? With his own story?!?

*head hits keyboard*

Yes, I understand people get upset when they have a clearly visualized PT in their heads, and then Lucas comes along and screws it up by doing exactly the opposite of what dialogue in the OT leads us to think.

The OT is all we have to go on. If we're lead to think in any fashion, it's his fault! If he blatantly contradicts himself, it's his fault! That's what makes me upset, not that he violated any vision I had of the PT.

[Deleted Scene]

Yes, I understand people get upset when they have a clearly visualized PT in their heads, and then Lucas comes along and screws it up by doing exactly the opposite of what dialogue in the OT leads us to think. And I know it's different here, because we're going backwards with the PT, not forwards, and that the answers to everything are not spelled out in the movies.

Speaking for myself, I didn't have the PT's clearly visualized in my head to the point where any deviation would ruin them for me, I just remember the story the OT's established. There's a BIG difference between tweaking the details and completely altering the foundation. GL changing details I can live with, but his screwing with the foundation has brought down the whole house SW was built upon. Try seeing episodes 1-6 in order and it's blatantly clear the saga no longer makes any sense.

It used to be that you could have a brain and enjoy SW, but now, because nothing connects, because GL has fucked up the continuity so much, you have to "just accept" what he's done. I will never subscribe to the theory that SW was nothing more than an empty, shallow FX extravaganza that only fanboys could enjoy. SW required me to think different, to believe people were redeemable and to learn that patience is a virtue. Now, it's all about leaving your brain at the door and just watching the pretty CGI. GL has successfully turned a series that had some deep meaning and spirituality into one about midichlorians and superficiality.

But, c'mon....

He took artistic license to give the story a more compelling ending. You think Natalie Portman's acting would have given a better ending with her character alive? Really?

This reasoning is illogical. If Natalie's bad acting is one of the reasons he killed off Padme, then he never should've cast her to begin with.

For the record, "memories" are usually more than just images.

I have memories of events in my life that are nothing more than images. I don't recall sounds or details, but I can remember a chain of events through the imagery alone.

This post has been edited by Deleted Scene: 19 June 2005 - 11:12 PM

[DarthTherion]

I think the definitive word here is that anyone who wants to enjoy the PT will come up with any justification necessary to excuse inconsistancies, and anyone who wants to hate the PT will never accept anything that contradicts their impression of what the PT should have been (based on the few clues given in the OT).

I've always approached inconsistancies in anything as an opportunity to discover creative possibilities for connecting things that don't seem to fit on first glance. Perhaps it gives much more depth to something that doesn't have it, but it is one's own entertainment that counts.

*ahem*, *points*

"I read a theory somehwere online that perhaps the Force grants Luke and Leia different aspects of their mother. Leia receives images of her mother, and she will go on to have children strong in the Force, becoming a mother herself; Luke unconsciously retains Padme's dying words, "There is still good in him," which he speaks in ROTJ. He redeems Vader. The Force gives them memories that guide them in their destiny."

P.S. I just spoke to some normal (read: not star wars geeks) friends; this is an extremely minor point to them.

[Darth Player]

There was a strong suggestion vefore the PT was about to be released that a lot of the backround stuff we saw in the OT would be explained, like the skull and spine C-3PO walks past on Tattooine. Somewhere in the PT a battle would have been shown between someone slaying the beast (Kyrat Dragon?) but instead we got Obi Wan riding the annoying Gilla monster in Ep. III, reminiscent of the really bad sci fi flicks of the 1950s where they used a pet store lizard and you could see the guy'shand positioning him, cigarette smoke entering the frame as the lizard stomps model railroad buildings with his tail. I guess the circle between bad movies with no SFX budget is complete with ones with access to good SFX but lousy stories.

We know even less about Obi Wan and Yoda than in the OT. What happened to the Jedi in the throne room with the long neck, the Yoda look alike, and all the others?How in the heck could Anakin construct C-3PO when a silver similar droid is in the first scene with Qui Gon and Oni Wan and in the OT it seems the 3PO series is a higher calibre of droid relied upon for many tasks?

Padme had no role in EP.III, except to look doe eyed out of the window to the far distance. Maybe that's the sadness Leia saw, but how whold she know to look backeards in time through the Force to see her that way> If this were possible, as Luke was trained to do on Dagobah "through the force you will seethe past, the present, old friends long gone..." why doesn't he have the ability to focus on his mother AFTER the training? Georgw just throws the "search your feelings" line around, which is a cop out.

In the OT we got the refined draft from Lucas's notebook. The PT was the crap that he left out and should have gone through a lot of rewrites if it were to be made into a somewhat decent series of movies.

[julie123]

Quote

How could you doubt the Force?!

Oh quite easily

Oh, and presumably Luke's training in ESB was not sensed because not only were Vader and the Emperor weaker after 20 years, Luke's older age made it more difficult for him to master the Force; thus it was almost impossible to pinpoint the disturbance in the Force from across the galaxy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote]


Yes Luke had such command of the force that in ROTJ he was able to stop that out of condition Vader from reading his thoughts NOT! Stop being such a Lucas apologist

[Lord Melkor]

As if Lucas has to apologize for anything.... I hate this "Lucas apologist" term.

[julie123]

As if Lucas has to apologize for anything.... I hate this "Lucas apologist" term.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lucas has plenty of stuff to apologse for, the present trilogy to begin with. Oh and don't hate, it leads to the dark side.

[Lord Melkor]

Apologize for making films that make hundreds of millions, and some people are willing to see it in cinema 10 or more times?( And I have seen it only once by the way, only film I have seen two times in cinema was LOTR first part).



And there is no hate, messa thinking those boards funny!

This post has been edited by Lord Melkor: 20 June 2005 - 10:13 AM