[elvenpianist]

Just a few I thought of.

1. Dooku can use the force to move pillars, throw things around, and all kinds of stuff- but he can't use it to block a lightsaber when he's just kneeling there, staring at the dude who is obviously about to cut his throat?!

2. In ep 6, the emperor says "kill him, and your journey to the dark side will be complete." Okay fine- you kill the apprentice and congrats YOU WIN, you're a sith lord.
So Anakin kills Dooku.
...
yup.
And then EVEN MORE priceless!!!!!! Mace is about to kill Palpatine!!!!
So if Anakin didn't mess everything up and kill Mace, Mace would've been the new darth lord, right?! Whoa that'd have been sooo cool..

[Hari Seldon]

And then EVEN MORE priceless!!!!!! Mace is about to kill Palpatine!!!!
So if Anakin didn't mess everything up and kill Mace, Mace would've been the new darth lord, right?! Whoa that'd have been sooo cool.. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wouldn't that be Sith lord instead of "Darth lord"?

[julie123]

Just a few I thought of.

1. Dooku can use the force to move pillars, throw things around, and all kinds of stuff- but he can't use it to block a lightsaber when he's just kneeling there, staring at the dude who is obviously about to cut his throat?!

2. In ep 6, the emperor says "kill him, and your journey to the dark side will be complete." Okay fine- you kill the apprentice and congrats YOU WIN, you're a sith lord.
So Anakin kills Dooku.
...
yup.
And then EVEN MORE priceless!!!!!! Mace is about to kill Palpatine!!!!
So if Anakin didn't mess everything up and kill Mace, Mace would've been the new darth lord, right?! Whoa that'd have been sooo cool.. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm. Does this mean that during Episodes 2 and 3 Obi-Wan has been pretending to be a Jedi Master, whilst secretly allied with the Sith? If I read you correctly, having killed Darth Maul in Phantom Menace, Obi-Wan should have been the new Sith Lord in Clones and Return of the Sith, not Dooku. Perhaps, that's WHY he didn't rescue Anakin from that Lava Pit - Obi-Wan knew that he was going to be overlooked yet again.

[elvenpianist]

Hmm.  Does this mean that during Episodes 2 and 3 Obi-Wan has been pretending to be a Jedi Master, whilst secretly allied with the Sith?  If I read you correctly, having killed Darth Maul in Phantom Menace, Obi-Wan should have been the new Sith Lord in Clones and Return of the Sith, not Dooku.  Perhaps, that's WHY he didn't rescue Anakin from that Lava Pit - Obi-Wan knew that he was going to be overlooked yet again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm talking unarmed here.
Unless you consider using force lightening (which is being backfired on you) being armed..

..which makes me wonder why Luke didn't know you could block force lighting with a saber; Yoda should've told him about that, heh.

[Deleted Scene]

..which makes me wonder why Luke didn't know you could block force lighting with a saber; Yoda should've told him about that, heh.

As much as I hate to defend GL, technically Yoda never found out that Mace had reflected Palp's force lightning back at him so he had good reason for not telling Luke about that trick in the OT.

However, now that we've seen it done, when one watches the films in order from 1-6, Luke will look very stupid for throwing hs sabre away in ROTJ.

[Dartholomew]

..which makes me wonder why Luke didn't know you could block force lighting with a saber; Yoda should've told him about that, heh.

As much as I hate to defend GL, technically Yoda never found out that Mace had reflected Palp's force lightning back at him so he had good reason for not telling Luke about that trick in the OT.

However, now that we've seen it done, when one watches the films in order from 1-6, Luke will look very stupid for throwing hs sabre away in ROTJ.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah but in AOTC Yoda blocks the lightning with his BARE HAND!!!

[DarthTherion]

When Luke throws away his lightsaber in ROTJ, it is an act of protest against what he realizes he could so easily become. He rejects the dark side completely -- even if it will cost him his life. It's similar to jumping down the pit in ESB instead of joining Vader; here, he would rather throw away his weapon and leave himself totally vulnerable than submit to hatred, aggression, and attachment.

In other words, he wasn't looking to continue fighting. It wouldn't have mattered if he knew how to deflect Force lightning.

Secondly, killing a Sith does not automatically make you a Sith. Your state of mind is what counts. When Obi-wan kills Maul and Windu is about to finish off Sideous, they are doing their duty as Jedi, protecting the galaxy from the menace of their ancient enemies. When Anakin kills Dooku, he does so out of revenge. He lets his personal feelings interfere.

"He cut off your arm, and you wanted revenge. Remember when you told me about your mother and the sand people?"

*sand person roar*

[Deleted Scene]

Yeah but in AOTC Yoda blocks the lightning with his BARE HAND!!!

Yeah, but Yoda was a Jedi master; Luke wasn't. Remember, Luke didn't even complete his training.

When Luke throws away his lightsaber in ROTJ, it is an act of protest against what he realizes he could so easily become. He rejects the dark side completely -- even if it will cost him his life. It's similar to jumping down the pit in ESB instead of joining Vader; here, he would rather throw away his weapon and leave himself totally vulnerable than submit to hatred, aggression, and attachment.

In other words, he wasn't looking to continue fighting. It wouldn't have mattered if he knew how to deflect Force lightning.

Yes, we all know this, but it still doesn't change the fact that Luke looks stupid for doing it. For the sake of argument, let's say Luke had known about being able to block force lightning with his sabre, he still threw it away in his act of rejecting the darkside. If Vader doesn't turn on Palp, then Luke dies and Vader/Palp continue living and without Luke, I don't see the rebellion defeating the Empire, but I don't want to debate this point. Let's get back on topic:


Plothole:

Padme's death in ROTS destroys Leia's recollection of her mother in ROTJ.

This post has been edited by Deleted Scene: 17 June 2005 - 09:25 PM

[DarthTherion]

Luke flung his saber away so that he wouldn't be tempted to use it in anger. If he *did* use it again in anger, it would have been worse for the rebellion than if he had died.

I don't understand the complaint about Leia "remembering" her mother. She seems to remember only images and feelings, nothing very definite.

[julie123]

Luke flung his saber away so that he wouldn't be tempted to use it in anger. If he *did* use it again in anger, it would have been worse for the rebellion than if he had died.

I don't understand the complaint about Leia "remembering" her mother. She seems to remember only images and feelings, nothing very definite.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well my complaint is that a newborn baby wouldn't remember a damn thing about her dead mother, let alone images and feelings. And please, no Lucas' apologists blah, blah, blahs here about Leia having force potential etc. Face it, Lucas f****d up.

Back to the real disccusion re plot holes

Why does Anakin consider it against the Jedi way to kill an unarmed man and beg for Palpatine to be put on trail, when Mace tells him to finish of Palpatine, when earlier in the film he denies a trial to Dooku and instead slices of his head. I seem to recall that Dooku was equally unarmed.

[Hari Seldon]

I don't understand the complaint about Leia "remembering" her mother. She seems to remember only images and feelings, nothing very definite.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As a newborn, not mentioning the fact that you can't remember nothing when you're older (let alone some 15 seconds or so, *right* after you're born), your vision pratically nil, you can only distinguish dark and more bright things.
And feelings? Yeah, right.

Why does Anakin consider it against the Jedi way to kill an unarmed man and beg for Palpatine to be put on trail, when Mace tells him to finish of Palpatine, when earlier in the film he denies a trial to Dooku and instead slices of his head. I seem to recall that Dooku was equally unarmed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not to put the blame, *again*, on George Lucas' script it was obviously because there was no sand people "arrrk, arrrrk!" that could be heard on the background like the first time round. Hehe!

Yeah but in AOTC Yoda blocks the lightning with his BARE HAND!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's because he's CGI. Flesh and bone Jedi have to resort to the good old lightsaber or get deep fried.

This post has been edited by Hari Seldon: 18 June 2005 - 07:19 AM

[DarthTherion]

I'm not trying to defend George Lucas, I'm trying to go by what's in the movies. I don't recall the exact dialogue, but Leia admits not having real memories but images and feelings.

I read a theory somehwere online that perhaps the Force grants Luke and Leia different aspects of their mother. Leia receives images of her mother, and she will go on to have children strong in the Force, becoming a mother herself; Luke unconsciously retains Padme's dying words, "There is still good in him," which he speaks in ROTJ. He redeems Vader. The Force gives them memories that guide them in their destiny.

I like that theory. It makes alot of sense.

As far as the killing an unarmed captive goes, remember that it's your state of mind that counts. Anakin kills Dooku out of revenge and personal feelings; when Mace is going to finish off Palpatine, he's acting out of his duty as a Jedi knight. Though the actions are the same, the mindset of the individuals makes them as different as night and day.

[CptSeaMonkey]

Yoda being the best light-side fighter, knowing what abilities Palpatine has, AND being present with Obi-wan at the birth of the twins.

They could have trained both twins from near birth until they were ready to attack with all four of them together -- Yoda, Obi-wan and the two Skywalkers.

INSTEAD ... the master plan unveils itself as sending in a half-trained Luke ALONE against both Vader and the Emperor at the same time, a mission he has NO CHANCE of winning, plus no one told him about the lightsaber/lightning thing.

Riiiiiight ....

Furhtermore, it reflects poorly on both Yoda and Obi-wan that they planned all along to use the Skywalkers in their little revenge scheme, because they weren't tough enough to do it themselves. It's one thing for Obi-wan to lie to Luke about his father (and I thought that was fine really -- the truth would have been overwhelming over even seemed ridiculous at the time), it's another to have his future planned out for him from Day 1.

The original trilogy only makes sense if Yoda and the Emperor are not fighters.

Gushers, don't even try to defend.

[Deleted Scene]

I'm not trying to defend George Lucas, I'm trying to go by what's in the movies. I don't recall the exact dialogue, but Leia admits not having real memories but images and feelings.

Here's the scene between Luke and Leia from ROTJ:

LUKE
              Leia... do you remember your mother? Your
              real mother?

                              LEIA
              Just a little bit. She died when I was very
              young.

                              LUKE
              What do you remember?

                              LEIA
              Just...images, really. Feelings.

                              LUKE
              Tell me.

                              LEIA
              (a little surprised at his insistence)

              She was very beautiful. Kind, but...sad.
              (looks up) Why are you asking me all this?

    He looks away.

                              LUKE
              I have no memory of my mother. I never knew
              her.

Leia only remembers images and feelings of Padme because she's unable to recall too much from when she was 3-4 years old or whenever it was that her mom originally died. It's not images and feelings based off being a 5 second old newborn baby with latent force powers. It was because in the original story, Padme wasn't supposed to die. She was supposed to live out her days with Leia. GL really messed this up BIG TIME.

[WalkingCarpet]

I can't think of a reason for Yoda and Obi-Wan to wait until Luke/Leia have grown. Wasn't Yoda part of the council that nearly turned Anakin away for being too old to train?!

Maybe the Jedi's were keeping a promise to the Lars's. "Sorry for nicking C3P0, here's his replacement for your farm. Oh but we might need him back in a few years to bring down the Empire and help destroy the Sith so keep him in good nick. Ta."