[DarthTherion]

I hadn't seen ROTJ for several years, and I just watched the ending of it last night on dvd. During the final duel, Vader tells Luke that joining the dark side is the "only way to save your friends." And he succeeds in goading Luke into being aggressive by threatening to turn Leia.

The whole scene carries a hell of alot more weight after seeing ROTS; Vader is tempting Luke with the possibility of saving those he loves, which is exactly how Vader himself originally fell from grace. Luke does partially give in to the dark side, but he ultimately throws away his weapon and refuses to attack or even defend himself. Imagine how Vader feels when he sees this. His son has a strength that he never had at that age.

I was surprised how much more powerful Vader's redemption felt after ROTS. In fact, I didn't even mind seeing Hayden at the end. It seemed...appropriate. (I had always loathed screen shots I had seen of him standing there, but I actually liked it when I saw it in context)

Has anyone else seen ROTJ since watching all the prequels?

[SithAvenger]

I hadn't seen ROTJ for several years, and I just watched the ending of it last night on dvd. During the final duel, Vader tells Luke that joining the dark side is the "only way to save your friends." And he succeeds in goading Luke into being aggressive by threatening to turn Leia.

The whole scene carries a hell of alot more weight after seeing ROTS; Vader is tempting Luke with the possibility of saving those he loves, which is exactly how Vader himself originally fell from grace. Luke does partially give in to the dark side, but he ultimately throws away his weapon and refuses to attack or even defend himself. Imagine how Vader feels when he sees this. His son has a strength that he never had at that age.

I was surprised how much more powerful Vader's redemption felt after ROTS. In fact, I didn't even mind seeing Hayden at the end. It seemed...appropriate. (I had always loathed screen shots I had seen of him standing there, but I actually liked it when I saw it in context)

Has anyone else seen ROTJ since watching all the prequels?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with you. That scene is more powerful than ever. Also, did you notice when Luke is in higher ground than Vader, he throws his saber because he perhaps is thinking: ''I will not fall for that trick again'' ?

[Revan-47]

yeah,hahah

[i don't like sand]

I agree which is actually why I really liked the concepual reason for Anakin's turn to the dark side in ROTS (though the execution still sucked horribly). Anakin wanting to protect Padme foreshadows Luke wanting to protect Leia, and it makes more sense now why Vader chose this particular moment to overthrow the emperor.

[Jordan]

Vader's redemption was always a joke. WHile I found the scene moving and I did enjoy it...

If you really give it thought.

1) Vader plotted to kill Palpatine with Padme and then Luke

2) Vader is a killer

3) He only Told Luke "you were right" which is not an apology for all the pain and terror he caused. He probably meant "you're right to not join the dark side, it got me fucked up bad, I have no legs!"

So Vader NEVER was redemeed. he killed the man he planned on killing and saved the son he planned on ruling the empire with. The blood of many is on his head.

He died and some how went to Jedi Heaven.

[Casual Fan]

The problem is that the three sequels to the OT never got made and likely never will get made. If they had, they would have shown Luke as founding the Second Empire and making the Sith supreme throughout the galaxy. Luke may have thought at the end of ROTJ that he was still on the lightside, but in fact Vader and Palpatine had completed his training, then they both had to die because Luke was stronger. That is the way of the Sith.

The prequels, of course, are important in showing just how messed up the Republic was and how badly more centralized rule was needed.

[DarthTherion]

So Vader NEVER was redemeed.  he killed the man he planned on killing and saved the son he planned on ruling the empire with.  The blood of many is on his head.

He died and some how went to Jedi Heaven.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I really think it's a mistake to look at the scene from the perspective of religion, as if Vader should have "repented."

Becoming a Sith is about being selfish. Anakin wants to save Padme because he wants her for himself. His determination to save her is based primarily on his own desires and unwillingness to let go.

In the case of Luke, Vader's decision is more selfless. I'm not saying his decision at the end of ROTJ isn't bound up somewhat with personal feelings, but his actions tend more towards the willingness to sacrifice himself for another. It's his state of mind that counts.

He says in the PT, "I will learn to stop people from dying." He's not able to do it -- he fails miserably at it his whole life. But Luke gives him a chance finally to save someone, his own son. Vader is given an opportunity to act selflessly once more.

The Jedi don't require you to "repent of your sins." The monumental act of escaping from the selfish mindset of the Sith liberates Anakin. There's no "Jedi Heaven." It isn't some place you go to for doing good things -- the ability to join with the Force comes from non-attachment. The Force doesn't care about our silly moral categories of good or evil.

At the end of episode VI, the Jedi has returned in Vader.

[barend]

puttin in christianson was retarded...

no two ways about it... we argue this to the cows come home, but i'm right... it was a bad call...

and if he had not been put in, would anyone be asking where christianson was?
no...

only a retard...

I agree with you. That scene is more powerful than ever. Also, did you notice when Luke is in higher ground than Vader, he throws his saber because he perhaps is thinking: ''I will not fall for that trick again'' ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's gold....

and maybe the only consistency to date...

[floppydisk]

Quite good ideas, DarthTheorin. I agree with you completely about the whole repent thing.

[Thracozaag]

In fact, I didn't even mind seeing Hayden at the end. It seemed...appropriate.
Has anyone else seen ROTJ since watching all the prequels?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're a far better man than I, then

koji

[DarthTherion]

Hey everyone,

Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it.

puttin in christianson was retarded...

it was a bad call...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let me just briefly tell you what I like about Hayden appearing at the end.

A force ghost seems to be some part of the psyche that endures, therefore its appearance is probably based on the self-image that the deceased had when he was still alive. Obi-wan and Yoda grew old, and they accepted their aged bodies as their appearance long before death. Anakin never really had this, because he was mangled and deformed at a young age. His last real self-image as a Jedi was of his young body.

Why would the force ghost suddenly look like his body *as it would have appeared* at that age without deformity? Anakin never saw what his aged body would have looked like; he had no self-image of himself older without the mutilations.

It does make sense logically to see the younger body. The only reason to protest against Hayden's inclusion is if you think he did a poor job of portraying young Vader and feel that Lucas should stop trying to link his old classics with his inferior new films.

However, I find that Hayden did a very good job in ROTS, particularly when he was facing the camera at the end, howling about how he had "brought peace to my new empire!" It felt right. I was glad to see that same form redeemed at the end of Jedi.

[Thracozaag]

Poor Sebastian Shaw; replaced by hair extensions. Lucas strikes again.

koji