[JamesEightBitStar]

yeah! the OT was *based on Lord Of The Rings, and knowing that the films were
being made, i Guess George realized that he couldn't get away with it twice!!!

(*ie. ripped off)

Please tell me you're joking. I fail to see how Star Wars ripped off Lord of the Rings.

[Despondent]

yeah! the OT was *based on Lord Of The Rings, and knowing that the films were
being made, i Guess George realized that he couldn't get away with it twice!!!

(*ie. ripped off)

Please tell me you're joking. I fail to see how Star Wars ripped off Lord of the Rings.

I laughed good at that one, barend.

Remember a buddy in 1980 telling me he heard a review of Empire, and that it had stolen much from LOTR, which I had not read yet. "Well, star wars is the best saga, totally original..." was my attitude at the time. I'm sure any thinking person could draw up comparisons given a few minutes time, which I don't have at this moment. funny line though.

[barend]

yeah! the OT was *based on Lord Of The Rings, and knowing that the films were
being made, i Guess George realized that he couldn't get away with it twice!!!

(*ie. ripped off)

Please tell me you're joking. I fail to see how Star Wars ripped off Lord of the Rings.

Afraid not!
There’s a bit of role swapping between characters but...

If you compare the story of the LOTR books to the SW:OT you'll see...

First installment:
1.a young hero is suddenly in possession of something belonging to the enemy, who needs to regain it. (It is given to him by a relative).
2.you have this young guy taken out of his simple farm like life by an old bearded man with powers.
3.the 'dark lord sends his elite troops out to our young heros’ home.
4.our young hero is directed to a bar, where types from all over come to meet up, drink and so forth.
5.at this place our young friend meets an older and experienced traveler sitting in a dark corner.
6.this stranger agrees to take him to where he needs to deliver this item he is in possession of. (He takes him out just as the dark lords' men attack).
7.the place to where the item is taken is not where it can be left, so our young hero must take it further and be part of the fight.
8.on their way the group must enter an enormous structure, even though they don't want to.
9.while in there, and after fighting the inhabitants, the older and wiser leader with all the powers falls in battle against a dark foe. (Funnily enough this death somehow makes the old guy more powerful).
10.the rest escape, our hero is quite upset.
11.they meet up with other allies, living in a nice woodland area that is well protected.
12. Here our heroes are given items to assist in their upcoming fight against some rather large numbers. The loss is great but our friends win the battle.

That’s just the first installment. do you want more???
(Was I describing ANH or FOTR above??? you tell me)...

and that was just the breif version!!!

[Vwing]

That sounds more like FOTR than star wars for a few reasons, but I know what you mean. Still it didn't rip it off. The script and tone are different, the setting is very original, and the characters, as you say, are swapped. Luke isn't directly Frodo, Vader is much more complicated than Sauruman who I guess he would be compared with, Han is most certainly not Aragorn, considering Aragorn becomes king, and Leia isn't really anyone. I guess she could be Eowyn, but Leia had much larger of a role than Eowyn, and MUCH larger than Arwen. It is the same basic story, because both are a hero's journey, and yes, of course Lucas borrowed some ideas from LOTR. But SW I do think still is an original piece of work.

[Despondent]

nice job B. once again, back in '80 another friend (we saw empire twice the day it went "national." this was before a 4000 theatres release) commented that there are only 14 or so plots on which to base ANY work. I was disheartened by that comment.

Enjoying the above list, I was waiting to see the SW/LOTR parellel with the surprise dive to death at the end. there's so little time and so much to criticize.

[JamesEightBitStar]

nice job B. once again, back in '80 another friend (we saw empire twice the day it went "national." this was before a 4000 theatres release) commented that there are only 14 or so plots on which to base ANY work. I was disheartened by that comment.

Being a long time reader, watcher, and player of video games, I can assure you with upmost certainty that your friend's comment is bull, unless you generalize every plotline in existence.

[civilian_number_two]

nice job B. once again, back in '80 another friend (we saw empire twice the day it went "national." this was before a 4000 theatres release) commented that there are only 14 or so plots on which to base ANY work. I was disheartened by that comment.

Enjoying the above list, I was waiting to see the SW/LOTR parellel with the surprise dive to death at the end. there's so little time and so much to criticize.

That's an old myth of storytelling, carried on by the likes of Joseph Campbell and pretty much every screenwriting professor working today.

Take a look at this, and see what you think of it.

http://smh.com.au/ar...1115933686.html

[Despondent]

an old myth of storytelling, carried on by the likes of Joseph Campbell and pretty much every screenwriting professor working today.

Take a look at this, and see what you think of it.

http://smh.com.au/ar...1115933686.html

I don't know; maybe the number I heard was wrong; but there seems to be an equation nonetheless. (Or not.)

However, I'm impressed by the knowledge and intellect of this forum's members. (or not )
Sincerely; I'm respectful that a lot of you folks' posts are more generally substantial than mine.

I'll finish with a quote from the aforementioned link:

"The challenge is to surprise the audience. People are so used to Hollywood plot formulas that once they've seen the poster, they know what's going to happen. You have to make them believe, part way through, that what they thought was going to happen isn't going to happen. I don't know any plot rules that tell you how to do that."

Let Lucas handle it. If you get a rise from the poster, don't worry. He's bound to frustrate you during the film. evidently, he's figured it out



(ps, the prequel posters imho are lackluster and don't inspire me personally. so much for that theory. I did like how the special edition posters, all three, worked together. kind of like the KISS solo album posters)

(but yes, the special edition posters prove the quote.)

[barend]

That sounds more like FOTR than star wars for a few reasons...

that's funny because i was thinking purley of starwars when i wrote it!

read it again...

infact everyone should read it twice, once as star wars and once as FOTR.

[Supes]

That sounds more like FOTR than star wars for a few reasons...

that's funny because i was thinking purley of starwars when i wrote it!

read it again...

infact everyone should read it twice, once as star wars and once as FOTR.

Don't forget to send us the rest of the installments. It's just bad form to leave it hanging there

[Supes]

Hi All,

I sent barend's little breakdown to a few friends as they also are SW & LOTR fans. Here's a response that I received from one of them. I've posted it here as it certainly hits the topic area being discussed. Please also note that I didn't mention the discussion that was taking place, but only posted the points barend listed. I love the way the collective conscious works sometimes

{Quote}
Lucas said he was inspired by Joseph Campbell's "Hero with a thousand Faces" (which Ive got at home somewhere if you ever want to read it). Its a thesis on taking all the popular myth from all the major religions and cultures and identifying all the comment elements.
ie:
a)Hero is living a normal life
He is called to adventure (ie something happens)
c) He chooses to ignore or follow this call
d) He meets a spiritual guide (in this case the old man) who assists him getting over the first few obsticles and helps him develop latent inner powers or abilities that will later arm him with the final confrontation
e) He overcomes the various obsticles in his way and finally confronts the personification of his own inner demons thus reaching nirvana (ie the successful outcome).
f) He then chooses to remain in Nirvana or return to his original world to impart his new found knowledge and skill.

Basically that's the structure for every story that has been of interest or importance to humanity.

Now I have no doubt that Lucas had read LotRs and I have no doubt he obviously read HwaTF, this would have given him the armoury to write SW.
Although who knows where the other episodes came from ;p

Question is, who was Tolkien inspired by? If he was inspired by ancient folk tales of northern and western Europe (as is claimed) then he was inspired by the very tales that Campbell spoke about in his thesis (consequently Tolkien could have read Campbell as well) and thus it comes as no suprise that the two greatest stories of the 20 century are basically the same.

Hence the theory that there are no original stories, only original ways of telling them.
{End Quote}

[barend]

Installment 2.
(Empire strikes Back v The Two Towers)

01.our young hero decides to continue his trip on his own and leaves the group except for his trusty companion.

02.soon after leaving everyone he ends up in a dank place and meets a creepy little (almost reptile) guy with barley any hair and big eyes who has been watching them (a guy who has been alive for a few hundred years).

03.after some argument (mostly with the companion) he takes them through the swamp offering to lead them to where/who they have to get to.

04. the creepy little guy tastes our heros rations and spits it out complain about how it is insufficient and not the kind of food he eats.

05.the little weird guy leads him to a cave and lets him go in. There is something sinister waiting inside for him…

{Meanwhile…}

06.Our older hero (the one met in the bar, who took our young hero part of the way on his journey) travels to a place where an old ally is. The man they seek is the leader of the area.

07.The leader of this area is under the control of the bad guys and makes decisions based on what the bad guys want.

08. the leader of this area brakes free of the evil influence and knowing that there are large numbers of the enemies men on the way, he evacuates the city.

09.some of our separated friends are reunited.

10. we leave this middle installment with a really significant ‘to be continued’ feel, and someone paralyzed (disarmed and covered head to toe some sort of cocooning material) .

Once again another very brief run over the story, but you get the idea…

hmmm… do you think I’ll be able to find any similarities between
RETURN OF THE KING and
RETURN OF THE JEDI

I wonder…
???

[civilian_number_two]

Lucas said he was inspired by Joseph Campbell's "Hero with a thousand Faces"

Lucas is a big-ass liar. As a film student at UCLA, he saw Kurasawa's THE HIDDEN FORTRESS, and. like contemporary Brian dePalma, was on the lookout for bankable stuff to remake. Somewhere on the way, he'd read DUNE, and saw a character of eventually unlimited power drawn into a power struggle on a desert planet. Therein find the beginnings of the Force, of the rogue pilot character, and even of the old man. Also note in STAR WARS the not-so-subtle nod to DUNE in the skeleton of the giant worm that 3P0 and R2 walk past early in the film. Lucas willingly admitted these quotes in the early days, and also called Obi-Wan a mix between a Samurai warrior and Gandalf. It's only later that he claimed that his influences were more pure and less derivative. Like when Tori Amos stopped admitting that her entire career has been a shallow parody of Kate Bush.

That said, STAR WARS is fun and original enough. Lucas is asking for too much credit when he compares it with ancient myths and theories about storytelling. He will be asking for way too much in Ep III when he gives us a slaughter of the innocent right out of Exodus (or the gospels; take yer pick). But even if he's a pretentious git, he did make three really fun movies (SW, ESB and American Grafitti).

PS: That myth breakdown isn't really perfect with respect to LOTR. Frodo doesn't really gain wisdom from Gandalf; if anything his mentor is Bilbo, a man who raised him and whose stories have armed Frodo with a little foreknowledge of what to expect in the world. And he never taps into any secret or special talent. It's more true of THE HOBBIT.
As for STAR WARS, Luke doesn't really confront "the personification of his own inner demons;" Vader only stands as such a thing if Luke already KNOWS that he's his father. In STAR WARS, Luke's final conflict is between his reliance on technology and his newfound faith in the Force. There's nothing personified there at all.

[Supes]

Lucas said he was inspired by Joseph Campbell's "Hero with a thousand Faces"

Lucas is a big-ass liar. As a film student at UCLA, he saw Kurasawa's THE HIDDEN FORTRESS, and. like contemporary Brian dePalma, was on the lookout for bankable stuff to remake. Somewhere on the way, he'd read DUNE, and saw a character of eventually unlimited power drawn into a power struggle on a desert planet. Therein find the beginnings of the Force, of the rogue pilot character, and even of the old man. Also note in STAR WARS the not-so-subtle nod to DUNE in the skeleton of the giant worm that 3P0 and R2 walk past early in the film. Lucas willingly admitted these quotes in the early days, and also called Obi-Wan a mix between a Samurai warrior and Gandalf. It's only later that he claimed that his influences were more pure and less derivative. Like when Tori Amos stopped admitting that her entire career has been a shallow parody of Kate Bush.

I thought you of all people would appreciate that statement Civ#2. Thanks for not letting me down.

[Jordan]

It's your typical CASE situation. (copy and steal everything)