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91 Counter Arguments to Chef Elf's Thoughts

#1 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 05:58 PM

I figured I would start this now before there are too many reasons to counter at once. I will examine every reason and explain why I agree or disagree with what Chef has to say. So a more fitting title would be "91 Observations About Chef Elf's Reasons to Hate Episode III".

1. War! What Is It Good For
I won't bore you with the remaining two paragraphs of the opening crawl for Episode III. I feel that the first paragraph sets the tone nicely enough.

I will admit this opening paragraph is pretty lame. However, at least the tone of it leads the viewer believe that something exciting (ie. a battle/war) is occuring rather than "The taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems is in dispute" or "There is unrest in the Galactic Senate as several hundred solar systems have declared their intentions to leave the Republic".

The next two paragraphs provide the viewer with sufficient information to
understand what will be happening. There is going to be a space battle because the Republic is trying to prevent Grievous from escaping with Palpatine.

Who exactly are the heroes on the other side? Count Dooku? Nute Gunray? Presumably the other side's hero was that battle droid that said "Roger, roger!"

I think General Grievous can easily be classified as a hero from the Separatists view. I can imagine it would require something quite "heroic" for an individual to be able to sneak into the Republic capital, which is likely to be heavily guarded (by both clones and the Jedi), and kidnap the leader of the Republic. This would be the equivalent of a terrorist abducting George Bush. Would that be an easy task to accomplish? I don't think so.

And you know Count Dooku would be considered a hero by the Separatists, so I am puzzled as to why you would even ask. He's the person who gathered thousands of star systems together to fight a powerful enemy. Again, I don't think it would be THAT easy to motivate small star systems to battle the Republic. And if you didn't watch Episode II closely enough, he also owned Obi-Wan and Anakin in a lightsaber duel, and hardly broke a sweat against Yoda. Dooku definitely deserves hero classification.

As for other heroes, look at the Clone Wars. Let's assume that the Separatists won a few battles. Let's also assume that they won a few battles due to great leadership. Presumably, that leader would be a hero. And if you use your imagination, the Separatists aren't strictly limited to droids and Nute Gunray. There were over a thousand star systems in the Separatists.

2. The space battle that opens Revenge of the Sith is impressive but meaningless. It's like watching a swarm of bumblebees simultaneously masturbate while singing "We Are The Champions" - impressive, but nonsensical.

It really isn't that difficult to follow the Jedi Star Fighters if you actually try. The problem is we aren't totally familiar with the new ships, so it is a bit difficult to follow everything. I've seen the movie three times now and the amount of detail in the space battle is absolutely amazing. On my last viewing, I focused on aspects aside from the Jedi and it really is incredible as to how much detail was put into this. I still do like the ROTJ space battle better, but simply because you cannot beat perfection.

3. X-Wing Precursors (Two Wings Are Better Than Three)
Airplanes were originally biplanes which had two wings on each side. Today we see airplanes with one wing on each side and a jet engine. Maybe there is some engineering explanation as to why two wings are better than three.

I have difficulty understanding the remainder of what you are complaining about. Are you whining about the fact that the X-wing precursors are attempting to link us to the OT and fail? How do they fail? By having an extra two wings?

4. R2 Fights the Buzz Droids
What would you prefer, a more original idea? A center eye seems like a logical point for a weakness to be, considering how the eye is most likely where the droid interprets its surroundings. Would you rather have Obi-Wan say "R2, zap the buzz droid in its mechanical penis"?

5. R2 Leaps Out of Ship
Did you ever consider the fact that the Jedi Starfighters may be equipped with some sort of spring device which propels R2 out of the ship? Maybe the X-Wing isn't equipped with this accessory.

Also, how does R2 get out of the X-Wing on Degobah? I actually can't remember, but there definitely weren't any cranes or suction pumps there.

6. Chancellor's Signal?
Grievous' ship is capable of specifically identifying life forms. As you will recall, the bridge is capable of tracking the Jedi and placing a ray shield around them. I don't see it being unrealistic for R2 to tap into the same sensor system and locate the Chancellor's life "signal".

7. R2 Cell Phone
There is no logical explanation for this aside from providing humour. And as I witnessed in the movie theatre three times, the majority of people laughed at this scene. Thus, George Lucas' objective of the scene was accomplished.

8. Droid I.Q.
I recently viewed the script of ROTS and found this:

SUPER BATTLE DROID 1: What's that?
SUPER BATTLE DROID 2: Get back to work. It's nothing.

And yes, droids do makes stupid decisions. That is probably why Palpatine chose to make a clone army rather than a droid army.

9. General Grievous
Nearly any possible potential fear of Grievous is eliminated as soon as he doubles over to begin hacking and wheezing.
He had his chest crushed! I'm sure anybody, bad guy or good guy, would show some sign of physical weakness after being fatally injured.

To further weaken Grievous's character, he is a tremendous coward
How is he a coward? Do you call an individual who risks his life to sneak into the most heavily guarded place in the galaxy to kidnap the most important man in the galaxy a coward? Grievous has legitimate reasons (ie. certain death) for running away. He is injured and needs time to recover.

Using the same type of logic, we must now classify Luke as a coward for refusing to attack Vader with his left fist and feet in Cloud City after getting his right hand sliced off.

The problem is we don't see Grievous at 100% in the ROTS.

It is also worthy of noting how bizarre it is that Grievous coughs as much as he does, considering he doesn't appear to have any lungs.
Although it is not apparent, evidentally he does have lungs.

10. R2-D2 Kicks Ass
Personally, I don't like R2's antics or new abilities. However, since Lucas introduced new abilities for R2 in AOTC it would be another contradiction for him to suddenly eliminate them. Again, these scenes are just meant to get a laugh out of people. Most people laughed in the theatre laughed at this, so evidentally Lucas accomplished his objective.

This post has been edited by Storm: 06 June 2005 - 06:01 PM

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#2 User is offline   fett Icon

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 06:47 PM

Of course he is a coward- his kidnapping of Palpatine was obviously set up, seeing how he WORKS for the guy..

The buzzdroid shouldn't have had a weak spot- it should just take a good beating to kill. If you remember the original Power Rangers, the henchmen ("Putties") had a button on their stomachs that, when hit, would send them back to the base. This made them COMPLETELY stupid, pointless, and easy to fight. This is the SAME THING.

Just a few comments.
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#3 User is offline   Renegade Icon

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 06:49 PM

It didn't make sense for him to say "heros" it should of be warriors. In the world of Lucas he's always had "good vs evil" so I don't see why he'd start talking about perspectives now.
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#4 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 06:52 PM

QUOTE (fett @ Jun 6 2005, 06:47 PM)
Of course he is a coward- his kidnapping of Palpatine was obviously set up, seeing how he WORKS for the guy..

Regardless of whether or not it was set up, Grevious encountered resistance from the Jedi while abducting Palpatine. There still was potential for him to be killed.

And I've seen no evidence that any of the Separatists, including Grievous, were aware that Palpatine was Sidious. Count Dooku was the only one who seemingly knew.

QUOTE (Renegade)
It didn't make sense for him to say "heros" it should of be warriors. In the world of Lucas he's always had "good vs evil" so I don't see why he'd start talking about perspectives now.

From a classic Greek mythology perspective, heroes were not necessarily good. Hercules was classified as a hero, yet he would rape women and kill them afterwards.

This post has been edited by Storm: 06 June 2005 - 06:54 PM

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#5 User is offline   Private Zod Icon

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 06:52 PM

QUOTE (fett @ Jun 6 2005, 06:47 PM)
Of course he is a coward- his kidnapping of Palpatine was obviously set up, seeing how he WORKS for the guy..


Just a few comments.


Grievous never knew Sidious was Palpatine.
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#6 User is offline   fett Icon

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 06:58 PM

and how are we supposed to know that? Seems kind of stupid for him not to be aware of this fact. Actually it seems pretty stupid both ways. But there is no evidence in the movie to show that Grievous knew, nor is there evidence to support him knowing. ugh

This post has been edited by fett: 06 June 2005 - 07:05 PM

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#7 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 07:00 PM

QUOTE (fett @ Jun 6 2005, 06:47 PM)
The buzz droid shouldn't have had a weak spot- it should just take a good beating to kill.  If you remember the original Power Rangers, the henchmen ("Putties") had a button on their stomachs that, when hit, would send them back to the base.  This made them COMPLETELY stupid, pointless, and easy to fight.  This is the SAME THING.

Some things need to have weak spots for the good guys to overcome the odds and win. If the two Death Stars did not have a weak point, then the Rebellion would have been crushed.
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#8 User is offline   Private Zod Icon

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 07:00 PM

QUOTE
and how are we supposed to that?


Because, you did not do your homework assignment between Episodes 2 AND 3 and read/watch all the Clone War cartoons, comics and novels that came out and explained Grievous's assault on Coruscant, how grievous came about, how anakin became a knight, Obiwan a general, etc tongue.gif

This post has been edited by Private Zod: 06 June 2005 - 07:01 PM

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#9 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 07:01 PM

QUOTE (fett @ Jun 6 2005, 06:47 PM)
The buzz droid shouldn't have had a weak spot- it should just take a good beating to kill.  If you remember the original Power Rangers, the henchmen ("Putties") had a button on their stomachs that, when hit, would send them back to the base.  This made them COMPLETELY stupid, pointless, and easy to fight.  This is the SAME THING.

I should also point out that the Rebellion, in the OT, continuously exploits weak spots to gain an advantage against the Empire. Such examples include:

1. As mentioned before, the two Death Stars.
2. The Star Destroyer shield generators being in the most open spot possible.
3. Using cables to trip the AT-AT walkers.

My point is, everything has a weak spot!

This post has been edited by Storm: 06 June 2005 - 07:06 PM

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#10 User is offline   fett Icon

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 07:03 PM

touche- but it still seems a bit out of wack to me.

and Storm- you are right about the Death Star, but I stand by my position. But what really irked me was all of the droids' cartoonish antics.
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#11 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 07:09 PM

QUOTE (fett @ Jun 6 2005, 07:03 PM)
and Storm- you are right about the Death Star, but I stand by my position.  But what really irked me was all of the droids' cartoonish antics.

I agree. The droids antics were cartoonish, but I realize they are just there to make the younger audience feel more comfortable. Lucas has a ridiculously large fan group, pretty much of every age, to satisfy. I'm just glad the cartoonish stuff played such a small and insignificant role in the movie.

This post has been edited by Storm: 06 June 2005 - 07:17 PM

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#12 User is offline   fett Icon

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 07:14 PM

it was rated PG-13... I rather enjoyed the darker feel to it. The cartoony antics felt out of place.
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#13 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 07:18 PM

QUOTE (fett @ Jun 6 2005, 07:14 PM)
it was rated PG-13... I rather enjoyed the darker feel to it.  The cartoony antics felt out of place.

Well, one thing I will say is that I'm glad Lucas got the cartoonish stuff out of the way immediately. It would have been more irritating if stuff like that kept popping up throughout the movie.
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#14 User is offline   Giff Icon

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 07:32 PM

QUOTE
How is he a coward?


Easy. Mace Windu said so. tongue.gif

QUOTE
Do you call an individual who risks his life to sneak into the most heavily guarded place in the galaxy to kidnap the most important man in the galaxy a coward?


Actually, since Grievous worked for Sidious, I'm sure the whole thing was a set-up...regardless of whether or not the general even knew the identity of Sidious. Assuming he didnt, Sidious could have placed Palpatine in an "easily kid-nappable" situation. And assuming he did know, then they probably just had lunch together and discussed the situation over cup of coffee.
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#15 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 07:35 PM

QUOTE (Giff @ Jun 6 2005, 07:32 PM)
Actually, since Grievous worked for Sidious, I'm sure the whole thing was a set-up...regardless of whether or not the general even knew the identity of Sidious. Assuming he didnt, Sidious could have placed Palpatine in an "easily kid-nappable" situation.  And assuming he did know, then they probably just had lunch together and discussed the situation over cup of coffee.

You're ignoring the fact that Grievous faced Jedi resistance when kidnapping Palpatine. If he truly was a coward, there is no way he would have attempted the abduction, even if things were done to favour him.

Furthermore, if Grievous was a coward he could have easily had a legion of battle droids annihilate Obi-Wan instead of facing him in a light saber duel one on one.

This post has been edited by Storm: 06 June 2005 - 07:42 PM

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