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91 Counter Arguments to Chef Elf's Thoughts

#61 User is offline   Trigormike Icon

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Posted 12 June 2005 - 07:47 AM

QUOTE (CowboyCurtis @ Jun 12 2005, 07:13 AM)
Back when I first saw the OT, I figured the whole "your father wanted you to have this" line was part of Obi-wan's lie. And it was.

Then it was just you... I never believed that, and I know MANY people who thought the same way.  Obi-Wan did not become a liar until ROTJ....which is where Star Wars started to go downhill.

Turning Obi-Wan in to a liar was not a good move on Lucas' part, and to continue to do that is even worse.



Thanks for the backup, Cowboy.

If you saw the OT after the PT then I suppose you could fit it around those stories, but for those of us that lived with the OT for 16 years we kinda had an idea of what had happened before ANH. And now we have to fit the PT around the OT which requires a lot of patching and extra parts.
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#62 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 12 June 2005 - 09:27 AM

It's all your fault, Cowboy. You're holding me back! *weak throw*

LOL!!!
Flying Ferret

Battle for the Galaxy--read the "other Star Wars"

All I know is I haven't seen the real prequels yet.
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#63 User is offline   Paladin Icon

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Posted 13 June 2005 - 08:39 AM

I feel a pretty firm obligation to defend Chefelf's decisions, so here goes.

QUOTE
Did you ever consider the fact that the Jedi Starfighters may be equipped with some sort of spring device which propels R2 out of the ship? Maybe the X-Wing isn't equipped with this accessory.

Also, how does R2 get out of the X-Wing on Degobah? I actually can't remember, but there definitely weren't any cranes or suction pumps there."?


During that particular scene, R2 used some kind of elevator that in his housing to get out... only to fall into the swamp a few moments later and freak Luke out.

I would say that it would take quite a bit of time for an astromech droid like R2 to be able to get off whatever fighter he's on (such as an X-wing) and get back on it.

I didn't watch the movie yet, so I don't really know what happened over there other than that.

QUOTE
Grievous' ship is capable of specifically identifying life forms. As you will recall, the bridge is capable of tracking the Jedi and placing a ray shield around them. I don't see it being unrealistic for R2 to tap into the same sensor system and locate the Chancellor's life "signal".."


Sad to say but Chef has a point. While the folks over in the Str Wars universe may be able to detect lifeforms, how can they be sure that they are following Palpatines exact signal? Are they locked in to his genes and are capable of finding him instantaniously? If that's the case, then I would have to say it's pretty stupid on part of the speratists because they could easily have duplicate his signature and placed it all over the ship, thus thwarting any attempt to rescue him.

QUOTE
I recently viewed the script of ROTS and found this:

SUPER BATTLE DROID 1: What's that?
SUPER BATTLE DROID 2: Get back to work. It's nothing.

And yes, droids do makes stupid decisions. That is probably why Palpatine chose to make a clone army rather than a droid army.


The very fact that they even speak to each other in such a manner is pretty lame to begin with. Along with Barend, the 'super' battle droids should have at least invetigated the source of the noise or even should have a radar or motion detector of some sort to detect things around them.

Rememer this: In ANH, R2 managed to detech several Tusken raiders from a considerable distance, and I think he did this again in the later movies.

QUOTE
What would you prefer, a more original idea? A center eye seems like a logical point for a weakness to be, considering how the eye is most likely where the droid interprets its surroundings. Would you rather have Obi-Wan say "R2, zap the buzz droid in its mechanical penis"?


What is logical or what isn't in this case would depend on the design of the droid. Having R2 simply zap them without some lame 'weak' point would have done for a better battle scene in my opinion. Stuff like 'weak points' in a zapping droid fight should be left for video games, not serious sci-fi movies... of course, Star Wars may even fail that description, too. rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
Personally, I don't like R2's antics or new abilities. However, since Lucas introduced new abilities for R2 in AOTC it would be another contradiction for him to suddenly eliminate them. Again, these scenes are just meant to get a laugh out of people. Most people laughed in the theatre laughed at this, so evidentally Lucas accomplished his objective.


I would think the the problem with this is that Lucas was devoting too much time on cheap gags and less on furthering the story. Wouldn't it have been better if the humour would be along the actions that carry the plot forward? Rather than waste time on silly little antics?

Further more, hearing about R2's 'cell phone' sounds prettysilly seeing that he should not need any audio sounds to hear the message. Rather, it should have been Obi-Wan sending spoken messages to R2 that would appear as text on his HUD or go directly into his CPU and have him quickly figure out what to do next without alerting any nearby enemies.

QUOTE
It really isn't that difficult to follow the Jedi Star Fighters if you actually try.


And it's not difficult to follow the Mellinium Falcon, either. The whole issue is not following one or two ships, but rather the mainstream of the battle that's going on. the battle in ROTJ (which is one of my favorite space battles) would have been pretty confusing and all around uninteresting if I didn't know who was who.

QUOTE
3. Airplanes were originally biplanes which had two wings on each side. Today we see airplanes with one wing on each side and a jet engine. Maybe there is some engineering explanation as to why two wings are better than three.

I have difficulty understanding the remainder of what you are complaining about. Are you whining about the fact that the X-wing precursors are attempting to link us to the OT and fail? How do they fail? By having an extra two wings?


Forgive me, but comparing airplanes to spaceships is not exactly appropriate. You see, flying and fighting in outer space is fundamentally different than doing it in the atmosphere of a planet. But I digress, let's get back on topic.

It wasn't just the tri-winged fighters that seemed out of place or too advanced, it was more or less everything else in the whole universe as well. While I've never flown a six-winged X-wing before (but I did fly an X-wing in several video games) I have this nagging sensation that the former six-winger would defeat the X-wing. Technology should advance through the ages, not retard.

That being said, one should take into account another fighter... the Z-95 headhunter that first appeared in the TIE fighter game and became flyable later on in X-wing VS. TIE fighter. The Z-95 looked a lot like a monoplane version the X-wing but as clearly inferiro in every way. I would really think that it would just be better if a bit of internal consistancy was there to say the least.

But as Barend said... the apparent redundancy of the wings (two with guns and four for nothing) sounds like a big waste to me. There are plenty of starfighters in the Star Wars universe with no wings and even more effective!
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#64 User is offline   julie123 Icon

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Posted 13 June 2005 - 02:08 PM

QUOTE (DarthTherion @ Jun 12 2005, 01:57 AM)
Why is this so hard for people to understand? Back when I first saw the OT, I figured the whole "your father wanted you to have this" line was part of Obi-wan's lie. And it was.

Sorry to deviate further from the topic.



Did you see all three films at the cinema and live with Obi Wan and the lightsabre thing in between A New Hope and ROTJ? When did you think he was a liar? Was it at the end of A New Hope or at the end of ROTJ? I personally cannot see how you could not have trusted Ben in Episodes 4 and 5, because the whole story was told from his point of view and we were given no reason to distrust him. It wasn't until ROTJ came along with that equivication "truth from a certain point of view" that we had to consider he might be lying.

Lucas never intended the fans to think that Ben was lying about his friendship with Anakin, light saber et all, just about him telling Luke that Anakin was dead. What I do find interesting is that Lucas is trying to prove this point in the present trilogy but he is such a bad storyteller it just isn't working - the ridiculous friendship scenes between Anakin and Obi-Wan in ROTS do not work because they clearly dislike each other in Episodes 1 and 2; the best pilot Obi Wan ever met was a 9 year old boy not the late teen/adult we were led to believe in the OT. Obi-Wan DID pick up that lightsabre after Anakin gets eaten by the lava but Lucas fails to make this clear, much like that shot when Qui-Gonn Jin gets it.

Personally, I always believed that Lucas was looking for a way, any way, to end the OT, and so came up with Anakin being Vader, needed to redeem a repentant sinner, sorry Jedi, and so made a liar out of Ben in the mean time. I didn't accept all those years ago that Ben would have lied and I don't now. Do not fall to the dark side!!
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#65 User is offline   SithAvenger Icon

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Posted 13 June 2005 - 03:49 PM

Hey Storm, now that Chef has written another 10 reasons you have to counter them. smile.gif
Sorry, you won't be seeing a smartass sig here. Try with the next poster.
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#66 User is offline   Lord Melkor Icon

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Posted 13 June 2005 - 05:15 PM

If those reasons need countering...

Since when Star Wars physics need to make sense according to Earth science? What about sound in space in OT? And cliche dialogue is very Star Wars, anyway don`t tell me that Lee wasn`t good in this movie.

This post has been edited by Lord Melkor: 13 June 2005 - 05:16 PM

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#67 User is offline   Patrick Bateman Icon

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Posted 13 June 2005 - 05:33 PM

Damn right. If Star Wars needed to make sense then we'd all be f****ed from the start when c3p0 enunciates with a flair that would make the queer eye guy's blush. Still, there's a differnece between suspension of disbelief and oh my god this makes so little sense it's insulting.
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#68 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 13 June 2005 - 08:03 PM

there's a big difference between the artistic liscence that abused science in the OT to the unartistc licence to kill science that had been in play in the PT...
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#69 User is offline   Be The Reds! Icon

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Posted 13 June 2005 - 10:13 PM

about the gravity thing...

If the ship was doing a nosedive towards the planet, no one would be falling towards the front end of the ship, they would be floating (or rather, in a freefall at the same rate as the ship) If the ship was traveling at an un naturally fast speed towards the planet so that the force of acceleration is greater than the force of gravity, then they would be falling towards the back of the ship.

Unless doing a nosedive disrupts the artificial gravity of course... but under the assumption that the artificial gravity pulls everything on the ship towards the bottom side of the ship, then the freefall should have had little to no effect.

The only way they could have been falling towards the front of the ship is if the ship was in a nosedive and using reverse engines to try to maintain the altitude of the ship, or to increase its altitude. Instead they fired "stabilizer engines", which would have the effect of pusing them against the floor, which already has artificial grav.
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#70 User is offline   Be The Reds! Icon

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Posted 13 June 2005 - 10:23 PM

QUOTE (Lord Melkor @ Jun 14 2005, 07:15 AM)
If those reasons need countering...

Since when Star Wars physics need to make sense according to Earth science?


Gravity and inertia are scientific laws and are prevalent around the entire universe.


QUOTE
What about  sound in space in OT?


All the ships and death stars have air in them. If you're in the cockpit of an x wing and you shoot, you'll hear something. If you're in the bridge of a super star destroyer and a fighter crashes through the window, you'll hear something in the breif instant before you die and all the air is sucked out of the ship.

The only way you would hear absolutly nothing is if you were just floating around in space watching the whole thing... in which case you'd be dead.

Yea there are shots which take place outside of cockpits, but a silent spacebattle would be kinda boring, don't you think?
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#71 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 12:12 AM

QUOTE (SithAvenger @ Jun 13 2005, 03:49 PM)
Hey Storm, now that Chef has written another 10 reasons you have to counter them.  smile.gif

Yep, I will get to them after doing a bit more physics research.
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#72 User is offline   Madam Corvax Icon

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 07:45 AM

Physics reserach????? Are you going to DEFEND SW ROTS basing on physics? I am looking forward to this, then. Could be as interesting as some Star Trek books explaining the principles of a warp drive....
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#73 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 08:06 AM

QUOTE (Madam Corvax @ Jun 14 2005, 07:45 AM)
Physics reserach?????  Are you going to DEFEND SW ROTS basing on physics? I am looking forward to this, then. Could be as interesting as some Star Trek books explaining the principles of a warp drive....



Warp drive can happen. Madam Corvax is like a mother to me, but I hate her, She's holding me back. Fuck this forum, I hate it, it's like sand, coarse sand is bad like this forum, not smooth like Canada is, I will build the most powerful warp drive ever, Where is Madam Corvax? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

This post has been edited by Jordan: 14 June 2005 - 08:09 AM

Oh SMEG. What the smeggity smegs has smeggins done? He smeggin killed me. - Lister of Smeg, space bum
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#74 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 09:26 AM

Allow me to do your physics research for you:

Some NASA flight surgeons say exposure to vacuum would kill you instantaneously and others say you may be able to survive for up to 10-15 seconds. However, since it hasn't really ever happened, we don't know for sure. Others say you could withstand the vacuum of space for some amount of time.

The cold may not be so much a factor as other elements (i.e. just holding on gently to a railing to avoid being sucked out of the cockpit). Decompression would be a major issue as it could damage your lungs but the damage may not be permanent.

Read this for more info: http://www.straightd...ics/a3_147.html
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#75 User is offline   Madam Corvax Icon

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 10:06 AM

QUOTE (Jordan @ Jun 14 2005, 08:06 AM)
Warp drive can happen.  Madam Corvax is like a mother to me, but I hate her, She's holding me back.  Fuck this forum, I hate it, it's like sand, coarse sand is bad like this forum, not smooth like Canada is, I will build the most powerful warp drive ever,  Where is Madam Corvax?  Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!


Jordan, wake up. It was just a bad dream. Contrary to the belief of many Jedi, the fact that you dreamed of me dying of chronic emphysema DOES NOT mean that I will actually die this way.
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