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How did lava become canonical? Anakin's fall

#1 User is offline   ernesttomlinson Icon

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 10:49 AM

Obi-Wan fights Anakin on some volcanic planet or other, Anakin falls in, is horribly burnt, and gets to wear the first Darth Vader Hallowe'en outfit ever made. Everyone knows this; this is how Darth Vader came to be. I've known it for years.

Why?

The more I think about it, the more ludicrous the idea seems to me. It's way, way over the top, especially in the prequels where we're asked to believe that, while in all other scenes Anakin's Force ability doesn't seem to be anything special, in this one particular scene his strength with the Force is so extraordinary that it can defy physics and chemistry and prevent him from instant carbonisation in molten rock.

Whose goofy idea was this in the first place? There are so many better and credible ways that Anakin could have been disfigured.
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#2 User is offline   Michel Orla Icon

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 11:17 AM

It starts in (surprise,surprise) ROTJ. In the novel Obi Wan tells Luke of fighting
Anakin and his ending up in molten lava. Even in a galaxy far, far away this isn't very realistic. But by ROTJ realism wasn't exactly high on Lucas's list of priorities

This post has been edited by Michel Orla: 03 June 2005 - 11:21 AM

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#3 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 12:12 PM

yep. And Hamill rambles on of what Lucas told him during ESB in one of the posted articles from the Countdown Calendar thread.
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#4 User is offline   Devout Catalyst Icon

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 12:13 PM

QUOTE
It starts in (surprise,surprise) ROTJ. In the novel Obi Wan tells Luke of fighting
Anakin and his ending up in molten lava. Even in a galaxy far, far away this isn't very realistic. But by ROTJ realism wasn't exactly high on Lucas's list of priorities


I think it goes back even further than that.

I seem to recall that even around the time of The Empire Strikes Back, Lucas was mentioning it in interviews.

This post has been edited by Devout Catalyst: 03 June 2005 - 12:14 PM

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#5 User is offline   andy_k_250 Icon

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 12:23 PM

QUOTE (Michel Orla @ Jun 3 2005, 11:17 AM)
It starts in (surprise,surprise) ROTJ. In the novel Obi Wan tells Luke of fighting
Anakin and his ending up in molten lava. Even in a galaxy far, far away this isn't very realistic. But by ROTJ realism wasn't exactly high on Lucas's list of priorities


In the version of the novel that I have, when Darth Vader is dying, he is thinking about his bad memories, and he "pushes aside" the memory of lava creeping up his back (which didn't happen in the movie).

I was expecting Anakin to lose his limbs in the lava, but I think the amputation is more realistic (since if Anakin hits the lava, he would probably die, not just lose limbs). Also, in the movie, I don't think he ever actually touches the lava much; one of his leg caps touches it and begins to catch the rest of his body on fire.

Is that right?
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#6 User is offline   Casual Fan Icon

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 01:00 PM

First, the whole fight on the lava idea is ridiculous. People can't stand just being near the stuff, then you have the horrible execution in the movie (Anakin and Obi Wan surfing on it, Obi Wan not finishing Anakin off, etc.). This is one of the things that destroys the suspension of disbelief needed to accept a fantasy film.

I had two ideas of how Vader wound up in the suit. The first was over the course of several fights, he gets one bad wound here, loses one limb there, and each time gets a mechanical limb, or respirator, or whatever. Eventually Vader himself decides that he might as well encase his entire body in armor, with a life support system, at least it looks intimidating and it gives him more protection.

My second idea has Anakin getting badly wounded in one fight, though as in the actual prequels he could have one artificial limb already. but unlike in the actual prequels I would have the audience actually think he is dead. Then in Episode IV Vader appears. And he doesn't get his limbs hacked off like the Monty Python Black Night, his worst injury does something to his lungs and he needs to encase his chest in a breathing machine. He has lost a limb already, so again why not go whole hog and just wear the black armor all the time. Maybe his hearing is damaged and he needs the helmet to hear properly.

And the Emperor, well he always looks like that. Or his look is the natural result of using the Dark Side to live to hundreds of years. I'll add that the ROTJ Emperor was mostly hidden in his robes and mainly looked really, really aged, not like a monster.

There is nothing that says the Emperor has to be human either, obviously Vader does once its revealed that he has human progeny.
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#7 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 02:02 PM

I had two ideas of how Vader wound up in the suit. The first was over the course of several fights, he gets one bad wound here, loses one limb there, and each time gets a mechanical limb, or respirator, or whatever. Eventually Vader himself decides that he might as well encase his entire body in armor, with a life support system, at least it looks intimidating and it gives him more protection.

This is what my brother and I had thought, too, why he wears the suit. We thought that the Emp' sends him out to (as Obi-Wan says in ANH) to "hunt down and destroy the Jedi," through his multiple battles, he gains injuries, slowly replacing limbs with bionic parts as he goes along. I figured the ANH Vader was the final form for him. I would've liked to have seen him in stages, but... alas... not to be.
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#8 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 03:05 PM

Heh Helena you make a great point about that. In fact, it basically only shows Obi-Wan being very pissed at Anakin, telling him how he's turned Padme against him, how he's loyal to democracy and will "do what he must." It never shows him pleading with Anakin to turn back to the light side as Luke did, and it should've. But I can forgive one small (and yes, it is small) continuity problem, seeing as I didn't even remember the line while watching ROTS and I've watched ROTJ a million times. Like Chef said, movies can have flaws if on the whole they're good movies, and I think ROTS is a very good movie, in and of itself.

As for the lava thing, I liked that scene, and I think that Ewan's performance there makes his actions understandable, especially the last line, "You were my brother Anakin. I loved you." Right there Anakin catches on fire. What's Obi-Wan going to do? Can he kill his former pupil and friend, who is defenseless, in cold blood? Can he save Anakin from the fire, after he's killed younglings and probably other Jedi in cold blood? He cannot do either of those things. Perhaps he knew Anakin would live, perhaps he thought Anakin would die, we dont' know. But we do know that he just couldn't bring himself right there, seeing this pathetic, limbless lifeform who used to be this cute little boy and (supposedly) compassionate Jedi, to chop Anakin's head off, or stab him, or whatever he would've done. But he also realized that he couldn't help Anakin. I thought it was a really well done, poignent scene with Ewan's best acting of the movie.

Also, though I agree that the original concept of Anakin falling into lava was unrealistic, I thought the way they did it in the movie made up for that. He never really falls in, he just catches fire and the fire spreads and burns his body. And I'm pretty sure the ROTJ book only introduced the concept of Anakin having some contact with lava (I don't think it ever says he falls in though) because it had been assumed previous to the novel.

And are you saying it was wrong to kill Palpatine there? This is the embodiment of evil. Windu knows this. Windu knows he has control of the government, that he will be acquitted in a trial, and will spread darkness throughout the galaxy (the moment's made much better if you've read Shatterpoint, because you know that Windu sees a huge shatterpoint in Palpatine and knows that this time he must take advantage of it, as he couldn't with Dooku). Anakin only sees Windu about to kill what he thinks is a defenseless Palpatine, and remembering what he did with Dooku doesn't want the same thing to happen, thinks it's wrong. Therefore, in the situation, I'd say both were right, and as we see later and as Windu knew, Palpatine certainly wasn't defenseless.
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#9 User is offline   Michel Orla Icon

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 03:31 PM

"When I saw what had become of your father, I tried to dissuade him, to draw him back from the darkside. We fought.....your father fell into a molten pit. When your father clawed his way out of that fiery pool, the change had been burned in him forever-he was Darth Vader, without a trace of Anakin Skywalker"

That's from the novel. Maybe this was told from Obi Wans "point of view" again. wink.gif Because he neither tries to turn him back, nor does Anakin fall into any molten pit.

But if you go by the movies thats never mentioned, so Im assuming Lucas was going by that and not the novels. Either way Anakin's physical transformation is well done, and it was a good move NOT to show him fall into a molten pit, no matter how strong he was in the force
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#10 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 05:22 PM

Wow, I don't remember it being put that bluntly, even though I did read it as a kid a long time ago. Alright, that small point conceded then smile.gif.

And yeah, like I said, falling into the pit was just way too unrealistic. This was much better.

But I gotta read the ROTJ novel again. Despite the stupidity of the idea, the writing in that seemed good, and I do remember I loved how he wrote the Darth Vader death scene.
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#11 User is offline   Michel Orla Icon

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 08:00 PM

Well I did have the benefit of reading all six episode novels right after I saw ROTS blushing.gif . ROTJ is VERY well written, and some of the problems the film has aren't nearly as bad in the novel. Ben's conversation with Luke is extended and really adds to the Obi Wan/Anakin relationship. Read it again, you'll have fun thumbsup.gif
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#12 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 09:58 PM

I remember that thing from the novel... I've got an omnibus edition of the three books.
In one explanation of that scene to myself I had the idea that the pit, though molten-hot, was actually a volcanic water spring, filled with light and steam and sulphurous smoke and perfectly capable of killing anyone who fell in there. I didn't mind having his robe fall in lava and his clothing catch fire and burn around him as in ROTS, but I've got a different idea for how Anakin dies and Vader is created these days.
The ROTJ novel was actually quite enjoyable, while the other two were fairly simple, largely because they didn't have the same ponderous mass of editing that ROTJ demanded.
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Posted 05 June 2005 - 07:57 PM

i quite enjoyed the rotj book...

it says 'molten pit' i'm quite sure...

but yeah, their proximity to molten lava in such quantity was almost as dumb as naboo having a river run through the planet core...

it seems that basic science is beyond the 'king of sci-fi'
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#14 User is offline   Darth Borba Icon

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Posted 05 June 2005 - 10:17 PM

Watching the original movies, there isn't a reason to question the helmet. It just looks friggin awesome. But in the new movie, it makes sense that he needs something after the injuries, even if you think the way actual way the injuries happened are stupid. But why the helmet?

I mean sure, it looks BAD ASS, but what would make the emperor think "YES, it will be your home!" to the idea of that crazy space-nazi helmet that looks like the front of an 18-wheeler? I just think it's hilarious that they just gave him THAT helmet after the battle

This post has been edited by Darth Borba: 05 June 2005 - 10:18 PM

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#15 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 10:42 AM

I mean, there is no real precedent for it.

This is how I had imagined it to be (silly me), but I thought there was a Republic, and they had troops, and I thought that the Empire eventually corporated some Republic designs and styles in its overtake of the military, i.e., look at the Death Star Gunners, and some of the personel hanging around.. their helmets are very Vader-like!

I thought we might see a lot more Republic troopers (of course, I thought there would be Republic troops in the PT, but silly me, guess not), and eventually, this helmet style would be placed on Vader, and become a general in time (because he is a general in ANH).

If Anakin was to be cyborgized in anyway--in accordance to PT-logic---he ought to look more like General Grievous, right?
Flying Ferret

Battle for the Galaxy--read the "other Star Wars"

All I know is I haven't seen the real prequels yet.
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