[Jaded Wolf]

All I'm saying is that Obi-Wan is not the paragon that he was presented as in ANH/ESB.  Obi-Wan leaving Anakin there is an all-time low.  The Obi-Wan from ANH/ESB would not have done that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What?! Oh, so in twenty years, I should be the same person I was at this age? C'mon now. Twelve years ago I was a teenager rebelling against my mom and some little spoiled brat. Today I am in the military, a Christian minister, and have a wife and kid. Obi-Wan was reckless in his youth. Yoda even says so in ESB. Obi-Wan admits he was even foolish to think he could train Anakin because of his inexperience. Twenty years later, Obi-Wan has become more wise than he was. Do you really think that twenty years ago, Obi-Wan in his youth would be all calm and collected? People change over time. We learn new things or learn our lessons so we don't make the same mistake twice. Of course Obi-Wan wouldn't be the same in the NT as he was in the OT. He got wiser and older. Duh...

[floppydisk]

I completely agree with Wolf here. Obi in the prequels is ultimately someone who failed on multiple levels.

[Jaded Wolf]

I completely agree with Wolf here. Obi in the prequels is ultimately someone who failed on multiple levels.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, here is one thing I will say I did not like about ROTS. When Obi-Wan and Anakin were "riding" on the lava (surfing maybe, I dunno), Obi_wan tells Anakin, "I failed you." I was thinking, No duh, now get back to the fighting.

[floppydisk]

Quite. I actually thought that that line was well placed, adding to the tragic feel of the story, but unlike most fight scenes where talking in the middle of fighting is a retarted thing that wouldn't happen, it was plausible here (as far as thier situation), and in fact, wasn't that bad and didn't distract from the action. That is, until Anikin started whining again.

[Darth Sane]

Right on dude.  C'mon.  So Obi-Wan left him there.  He probably thought he was going to die.  It's not Obi-Wan's fault that the Emperor was more connected with his apprentice than the Jedi had been in the prequels.  Also, there just might have been a side of Obi-Wan that still cared about Anakin.  No one laughed in the theater I was at.  There was a sense of shock, and even a sense of sadness at what had happened.  Nitpickers...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jesus Jaded wolf would you please look at my last post and try to understand where the so called "nitpickers" are comming from.

[floppydisk]

I also agree with you that the scene needed to be more specific, but what I agree with JW about is that Obi could change in 20 years.

Just wanted to clear that up...

[julie123]

That's a good point - ironically, it's Obi-Wan's cruelty here that actually allows Vader to survive, leading to yet more misery for the entire galaxy. And frankly, he bears enough responsibility for that to start with.

In any case, whatever your personal feelings on the subject, a Jedi is absolutely the last person who should be acting in that way. The Jedi aren't supposed to take revenge at all, let alone in such a cruel and painful fashion. If Obi-Wan had behaved like a real Jedi and ended Anakin's life as quickly as possible, the galaxy would have been spared a whole lot of suffering.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting that Anakin appears then, never to have acted like a real Jedi. The boy is always, angry, arrogant, wilful, disobeying orders, chatting up girls, lobbing the head of those Tuskens, etc.

If as you say Obi-Wan had acted like a real Jedi and offed Anakin and spared the galaxy from a whole lot of suffering, he could have only done so by changing time because the suffering that you allude to happened over 20 years ago. Obi-Wan would also have had to one of those Jedi, I am having a premonition moment here, whilst busily lecturing Anakin to death. Isn’t going to happen.

However, you all appear to be so taken with Obi-Wan's "evil deed" you have missed the fact that in reality, the both of them would have croaked from the fumes, let alone the heat melting the skin from their bones. To be caught up in Anakin hanging of the lave pit whilst Obi-Wan fills him in on his character flaws therefore appears a tad ridiculous.

Jeez, throughout the PT, there have been scenes similar to this: In Clones, Padme falls about 40 feet from a ship, smashes on to hard sand, is unconscious for all of 40 seconds, then leaps to her feet, sprints like an Olympic athlete and shows no signs of concussion or injury. In ROTS, Padme has just been informed that her darling husband has killed an whole lot of younglings, then been brutally force choked by said hubbie but still finds it in her broken heart to feel that there is still good in Anakin. The incongruity of Padme saying there was still good in Anakin at that moment in the film strikes me as just as ludicrous as Anakin hanging of the lava pit whilst he is busily being lectured by Obi-Wan. It is Lucas who is at fault here people, not Obi-Wan, because he cannot work out where and when his characters should be saying their lines, so as they are lent any kind of credibility.

I am so tired of Lucas's dark side plot of the OT making us love the Jedi and now the PT turning us against them. Strikes me as immoral, akin to say, if Hitler's life story was told from the middle and ended with him just about to start slaughtering the Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, etc. Substitute the Sith/Anakin for the Nazis. Would we now start cheering on the Nazis?

[Darth Player]

If "destroy the Sith we must..." then Obi Wan did more to help create Vader than the Emperor because he rendered him in such a condition that he was consumed with rage enough to sweep the galaxy to exact vengence for his condition and inadvertently do the Emperor's bidding.

If "destroy the Sith we must" then Obi Wan and Yoda would stand more to gain if Obi Wan took Vader (or what remained of him) back to the Asteroid medical canter.Padme whoudl have felt his presence on the ship and pulled through in an effort to later save him. She'd have a reason to live, and the twins could have helped bring Vader back to being Anakin. I still don't understand how Vader killed Padme in his supposed rage, unless the Emperor is toying around with him, which at any point, why doesn't Vader kill the Emperor immediately for duping him?

Bringing back Vader to the aforementioned asteroid planet wouldn't have been a big risk to Obi Wan because of Vader's condition. He could also have been used as bait to get the Emperor in proximity and whack him, destroying the Sith in little time. Rig the area with sonic mines from AOTC, its not that hard.

All these questions come about because of really sloppy writing. Things are presented and not explained, and hence the reason that despite the record amount of cash made, there's no repeat business. Lucas is more adept at making multi million dollar trailers that look cool as hell, but not successful in making a decent, old fashoned story.

[DarthTherion]

In the book, I believe the Emperor's ship arrives just moments after Obi-wan defeats Anakin, so Obi has no time to bring himself to kill his former pupil. He decides to "leave him to the will of the Force." In the movie, it seems as if Obi-wan is simply overwhelmed and leaves as quickly as possible, unwilling to watch Anakin suffer but too weak to finish the job. It's the same idea of washing one's hands of the situation and leaving it all up to the Force.

You see, Anakin is the Chosen One who is destined to destroy the Jedi as well as the Sith (he fulfills this 20 years later). By not being able to bring himself to kill Anakin, Obi-wan (unknowingly) saves the galaxy, because Vader eventually does kill Palpatine. Obi's apparent weakness is actually the triumph of the Force.

Yes, Obi-wan does not know that leaving Anakin alive will result in the overthrow of the Emperor -- yet he is enacting the will of the Force. In the OT, we are told that "You cannot escape your destiny." Greek drama, anyone?

I thought it was pretty clear that Obi-wan was heartbroken in that final scene. His speech didn't have the tone of a lecture; it felt like a lament. Ewan McGregor did a great job. It was easy to sense the countless emotions affecting his character.

[julie123]

Quote

You see, Anakin is the Chosen One who is destined to destroy the Jedi as well as the Sith (he fulfils this20 years later). By not being able to bring himself to kill Anakin, Obi-wan (unknowingly) saves the galaxy, because Vader eventually does kill Palpatine. Obi's apparent weakness is actually the triumph of the Force.

Yeah, I am aware of Anakin being the Chosen One, who isn't? However, Anakin could have fulfilled his destiny by killing Palpatine when Mace and Palpatine were duelling. The only reason he didn't was because 1) Lucas wanted to redeem Vader with that stupid prophecy - the force made him do it and 2) because the OT has already been made.

But how exactly is this a triumph of The Force? There are only 2 or 10,000 force users depending on your point or view in the whole galaxy, but its okay that billions of non-force users have to die just so that The Force can be bought back into balance? Doesn't sound much to be triumphant about to me.

Yes, Obi-wan does not know that leaving Anakin alive will result in the overthrow of the Emperor -- yet he is enacting the will of the Force. In the OT, we are told that "You cannot escape your destiny." Greek drama, anyone?[/QUOTE]

Refer to my answer above.

Quote

I thought it was pretty clear that Obi-wan was heartbroken in that final scene. His speech didn't have the tone of a lecture; it felt like a lament. Ewan McGregor did a great job. It was easy to sense the countless emotions affecting his character.

Okay my point was tongue in cheek; however, I think I made it clear that regardless of whether or not you think Obi-Wan to be heartbroken or merely lecturing Anakin, it was a stupid act on Lucas’ part to have this speech take place whilst Anakin was hanging from a lava pit. It simply made Obi-Wan look callous, cruel, not like a Jedi, etc, and detracted from Obi-Wan’s pain.

[DarthTherion]

Hey, Julie, thanks for the reply.

The way I look at it, the PT was purposefully made to be the inverse of the OT. Whereas the OT stresses freedom of will and the ability of one farm boy to change the galaxy, the PT lays heavy emphasis on Destiny. Things happen because they *must.*

So, the real question is, "Is it really the Will of the Force that millions/billions of people need to die so that 'balance' can be achieved?" I think the answer is yes.

Bad things happen all the time, and it's very hard for humans to understand the universe, mostly because we insist that it neatly fall into the categories of "good" and "evil" that we've dreamed up. The Force has a light and a dark side, and I don't think it's particularly "good" or on the side of anyone. Death is as much a part of the universe as life, and even Yoda stresses the importance of "train[ing] yourself to let go of that which you fear to lose."

In other words, the "triumph of the Force" doesn't mean "triumph" in the human sense. Damned if we know what the Force wants....

Look at the story of Oedipus. Why does all that happen to the poor guy? Why does he and everyone in his city suffer so much? He does everything he can to prevent *his* prophecy from coming true, but he ends up fulfilling it anyway.

Humans have been asking themselves these questions about Fate since the beginning of time. We haven't found an answer, but it sure is fun seeing it dramatized.

[DarthTherion]

One last comment.

Okay my point was tongue in cheek; however, I think I made it clear that regardless of whether or not you think Obi-Wan to be heartbroken or merely lecturing Anakin, it was a stupid act on Lucas’ part to have this speech take place whilst Anakin was hanging from a lava pit.  It simply made Obi-Wan look callous, cruel, not like a Jedi, etc, and detracted from Obi-Wan’s pain.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think perhaps we are to take from this that Obi-wan is *not* acting like a real Jedi at the end. A real Jedi would have killed Vader, like Yoda wanted.

[julie123]

Quote

Hey, Julie, thanks for the reply.

You're welcome.

Quote

So, the real question is, "Is it really the Will of the Force that millions/billions of people need to die so that 'balance' can be achieved?" I think the answer is yes.

Those billions of people who died were non force users. I will ask again, WHY should they die so that the force can be bought back into balance? The force being back in balance is completely irrelevent to those billions of dead people and to future generations of non force users.

Quote

It's very hard for humans to understand the universe, mostly because we insist that it neatly fall into the categories of "good" and "evil" that we've dreamed up. The Force has a light and a dark side, and I don't think it's particularly "good" or on the side of anyone. Death is as much a part of the universe as life, and even Yoda stresses the importance of "train[ing] yourself to let go of that which you fear to lose."

I am aware that shit happens, however what we are discussing here is two dimensional - black and white, good versues evil etc, etc , because these are George Lucas' films here, not stories of Oedipus. And please, of course the force is supposed to be on the side of either the Jedi or the Sith, or what is the whole point of having a prophecy? Jeez, did you miss what Obi-Wan was saying to Anakin when hanging over the lava pit - you know him being the chosen one, the one destined to banish the Sith for ever, and return the force to the light side?

Quote

In other words, the "triumph of the Force" doesn't mean "triumph" in the human sense. Damned if we know what the Force wants....

What is the point of using the word triumph if not in the human sense? What other sense is there? We know exactly what the Force wants, George Lucas has told you/us countless times. The Force wants to be bought back into balance.

Quote

Look at the story of Oedipus. Why does all that happen to the poor guy? Why does he and everyone in his city suffer so much? He does everything he can to prevent *his* prophecy from coming true, but he ends up fulfilling it anyway.

Difference here is that George Lucas is telling the tale in Star Wars. There was no prophecy in the OT and since Phantom Menace we have been led to believe that Anakin/Vader is finally redeemed because there was no other way for him to fulfil the prophecy other than turning to the dark side and slaughtering those billions of people. HOWEVER, we learn in ROTS, this is not so. He could have fulfilled his destiny by killing Palpatine when giving the opportunity and in doing so the Sith would have been eliminated forever. Please stop applying Oedipus to your arguments because in the George Lucas world it does not apply,

Quote

Oedipus didn't start from the middle of the journey and end up there.
Humans have been asking themselves these questions about Fate since the beginning of time. We haven't found an answer, but it sure is fun seeing it dramatized.

I don't know all of the answers, but I know when George Lucas is feeding me a crock of shit. I wish it was fun seeing the dramatisation of ROTS, but that would be lying.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote]

[Thracozaag]

In the book, I believe the Emperor's ship arrives just moments after Obi-wan defeats Anakin, so Obi has no time to bring himself to kill his former pupil. He decides to "leave him to the will of the Force." In the movie, it seems as if Obi-wan is simply overwhelmed and leaves as quickly as possible, unwilling to watch Anakin suffer but too weak to finish the job. It's the same idea of washing one's hands of the situation and leaving it all up to the Force.

You see, Anakin is the Chosen One who is destined to destroy the Jedi as well as the Sith (he fulfills this 20 years later). By not being able to bring himself to kill Anakin, Obi-wan (unknowingly) saves the galaxy, because Vader eventually does kill Palpatine. Obi's apparent weakness is actually the triumph of the Force.

Yes, Obi-wan does not know that leaving Anakin alive will result in the overthrow of the Emperor -- yet he is enacting the will of the Force. In the OT, we are told that "You cannot escape your destiny." Greek drama, anyone?

I thought it was pretty clear that Obi-wan was heartbroken in that final scene. His speech didn't have the tone of a lecture; it felt like a lament. Ewan McGregor did a great job. It was easy to sense the countless emotions affecting his character.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Haha, well done.

koji

This post has been edited by Thracozaag: 18 June 2005 - 09:20 AM

[Firewhenready]

Obi-wan should've at least used the Force to put out the flames once Anakin was burned enough to need the suit, just so Anakin wouldn't lay there suffering. The way I see it, it would've been in character for him to either finish off Anakin quickly or save him; what he did was the most out-of-character choice he could've taken.