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ATTACK OF THE RHETORIC -a reader's guide to reading into-

#31 User is offline   SithAvenger Icon

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Posted 18 June 2005 - 01:38 PM

I don't think this topic is tedious. I think it's great. thumbsup.gif
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#32 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 19 June 2005 - 12:22 AM

i appreciate your enthusiasm, i have put quite a bit of effort into this thread.
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#33 User is offline   SithAvenger Icon

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 07:13 PM

And are you going to continue?
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#34 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 01:39 AM

oh yes, just uh... compiling my notes. shifty.gif im working on part three of the unconscious star wars. for some reason i feel it ought to be a trilogy...i always intended it to be a trilogy sleep.gif
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#35 User is offline   SithAvenger Icon

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 02:00 AM

Okay. I'm looking forward to it. thumbsup.gif
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#36 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 08:39 PM

the unconscious star wars

PART: 3

As promised, the third episode in the unconscious star wars. Unlike the previous two parts, Id like to simply explore my own reactions to the book as they relate to star wars. I had only read about half the book when I decided I had to write about the uncanny resemblance of jung’s archetypal images to anakin. So as I read the last half of the book I kept an eye out for any more similarities. I found some. Id like to make a few more comparisons between the book (man and his symbols) and star wars. But thats all they are, comparisons. Im not suggesting this is definitely the place where lucas got his inspiration; I do feel strongly however, that lucas was familiar with jung’s work and that he may have even read this particular book.

First off, I noticed a striking resemblance between jung’s idea of the psyche and the force. Jung believed that the mind had two parts, the conscious and the unconscious. Everyone is already familiar with the conscious, but the unconscious goes largely unnoticed, except by way of dreams and gut-feelings. The mind seeks individuation, the reconciliation of both its parts. When the unconscious is forgotten, that process can not take place. The psyche becomes unbalanced and eventually dangerous. This ‘dissociation’ can occur within individuals, but also among entire societies (and for my arguments sake, with mystical energy fields). Aniela jaffe writes:

“Everything that once bound man to the human world, to earth, to time and space, to matter and the natural living of life, has been cast aside or dissolved. But unless the unconscious is balanced by the experience of consciousness, it will implacably reveal its contrary or negative aspect.”

The jedi have become dissociated from the force, they suppress their emotions and live in a bustling metropolis; blissful in their complacency, assured of eternal victory. They have forgotten the force has two sides. they have forgotten the sith, the darker side of nature.

“Envy, lust, sensuality, lies, and all known vices are the negative, ‘dark’ aspect of the unconscious, which can manifest itself in two ways. In the positive sense, it appears as a “spirit” of nature,” creatively animating man, things, and the world.”

This loss of balance had dire consequences for anakin, who was meant to be the balancing agent:
jung writes,

“This means that the individual’s psyche is far from being safely synthesized; on the contrary, it threatens to fragment only too easily under the onslaught of unchecked emotions. We too can become dissociated and lose our identity.”

anakin lost or ‘murdered’ his identity and took on a new one, this inner transformation is symbolized by the persona of darth vader. Speaking of japanese no performers (whose significance was already expressed in this thread), jaffe tells us that masks are worn to submerge the humanity of the actor and allow them to take on the visage of beautiful or horrible spirits.

“In psychological terms, The mask transforms its wearer into an archetypal image.”

we get to see this transformation take place in ep III, as the mask of vader is ominously placed over anakin’s face.

Other concepts of jungs share specific traits with the force. The idea of synchronicity, for example. Jung felt, drawing on eastern philosophy, that coincidental events can be meaningfully related, that traditional causality need not apply. instead of A caused B, you have, A likes to occur before B does. People jokingly explain away inconsistences in star wars by saying, “it was the force.”, there is more truth in that than they realize. All stories rely on a series of events to advance the plot, often one is left wondering why a thing happened a certain way; star wars is no different, except that there is a consciousness (or unconsciousness) that is guiding those events. Jung believed that the unconscious (the force) could have a causal effect on conscious experience (force-pushing or choking), that there could be a “Psychophysical one-ness of all life phenomena.” (This idea helps to explain the role of midichlorians in force ability).

Franz: “ Jung was even convinced that what he calls the unconscious somehow links up with the structure of inorganic matter.”

jung felt one day science would discover the unification of mind and matter, heaven and earth. That the psyche is inseparable from the physical world. He called this the Unus mundus. Which tempts me to think of as the orgins of the name ki-adi-mundi.

Finally, (thanks so much to anyone who has read so far) jung explains his theory of cryptomnesia,

“In this type of case there is genuine, if unrealized, recollection. An idea or an image has moved back from the unconscious into conscious mind.”

If lucas read this book, it is possible that the ideas contained therein became apart of his unconscious, and there they sat until the writing of star wars-and all its offspring. with this in mind, I was actively searching for star wars related material. In this book is where I first heard of the shakti (mentioned in previous post) and of the mundus. Also, there is discussed the work of the influential painter mondrian piet, only similar in namesake to captain-admiral piet.

in conclusion, I feel that there is such a thing as reading too far into things. This last post is at best playful, only meant to offer interesting comparisons between two intellects. and to all those who pick these movies apart in a negative fashion, I leave this quote from franz marc, as quoted by jaffe,

“Have we not learned from a thousand years of experience that things cease to speak the more we hold up to them the visual mirror of their appearance.”

TTFN

This post has been edited by xenduck: 23 June 2005 - 08:40 PM

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#37 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 08:59 PM

oh ya, a few things a forgot to mention:

in man and his symbols, jung is mainly concerned with the role the unconcious plays in dream symbolism. in it, he relates several dreams by patients who, in their dreams, foresaw their (or a loved one's) death. jung says that the destructive nature of the unbalanced unconscious will often give warning of its unpleasent state. if unheeded, negative aspect of the psyche can lash-out vengfully on the individual, even resulting in death. this is an important part of anakin's motivations for succumbing to the darkside. franz writes,

"one finds that the magic that can cure the king proves to be something very special"

to save the queen, his love, anakin must discover this 'special magic'.

"only one thing seems to work; and that is to turn directly toward the approaching darkness without prejudice and totally naively"

dr. henderson adds, "the hero...must realize that the shadow exists and that he can draw strength from it. he must come to terms with its destructive powers if he is to become sufficiently terrible to overcome the dragon."

the 'dragon' is symbolic of anakin's difficult task. this is one more way in which anakin conforms to the heroic archetype. this knowledge helps me to understand, and sympathize with, his fall to the darkside.

This post has been edited by xenduck: 23 June 2005 - 09:01 PM

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#38 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 24 June 2005 - 01:06 PM

sorry to keep adding on to this one theme,

but i suddenly got the impression that the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the force was written three decades prior to anakin's birth by jedi master carl-gustave jung. (and friends)
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#39 User is offline   SithAvenger Icon

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Posted 24 June 2005 - 01:58 PM

Great stuff, xenduck! thumbsup.gif
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#40 User is offline   njamilla Icon

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Posted 26 June 2005 - 12:48 PM

QUOTE
Luke: is of course from the Latin word luc, meaning light.


Luke, as GL admitted in an interview, comes from Lucas. And the Latin word for light is Lux.

Finding all the meaning in names is a kind of silly game without real references. I find the "I say/hearsay" interpretation of Star Wars names to be misleading and undisciplined, linguistically speaking. Without real authoritative knowledge, we can all guess until our faces turn blue.

I buy the argument that Darth Vader can be interpreted as "dark" and "father" because of what can be gleaned from Episodes 1-6. But for something like "Ki-Adi-Mundi"; that the "ki" refers to the chi or pranja is harder to conclusively iron down. You need to get a statement from someone in authority -- a SW writer, the head of the SW literature department, GL, etc.

Personally, I don't read a lot of meaning into the names of SW. I've never heard any authoritative person discuss the significance of Luke as "light." The case has to be argued convincingly. I think SW names are rather haphazard and are culled from sounds because of their emotive content. Yes, all names are chozen deliberately by writers but that doesn't necessarily mean that names give us critical insights. For example, R2-D2, according to a comment by Ben Burtt comes from an alpha-numeric system for organizing his library. No special meaning; it just sounds good.

I'm not saying that parsing SW names isn't a fun exercise, but I won't base interpretations of the SW saga's meaning on them.

This post has been edited by njamilla: 26 June 2005 - 12:50 PM

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#41 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 26 June 2005 - 06:23 PM

njamilla, you're right, i have been reading into things...
your concerns are entirely valid, however, may i draw your attention to my numerous cautionary phrases,

"Please keep in mind, however, that I don’t presume to know what Lucas was thinking when he wrote the movies, only what I was thinking when I watched them. Maybe its all a coincidence."

"i imagine in my mind a chain "

" i know im reading into things that were probably only coincidental, but thats what this thread is all about."

"a couple of the name backgrounds are inconclusive and are only vague extrapolations. but hey, at least i learned somthn!"

"this is a stretch" or "another stretch"

" Im not suggesting this is definitely the place where lucas got his inspiration"

"I feel that there is such a thing as reading too far into things"

were these not enough to asuage your misgivings? i know that none of this is certain, or scripture; its not meant to be. i just wanted to share facts and philosophies that the love of star wars has helped me to learn and internalize. as well as to display the parallels i have drawn, whether they are purposeful, coincidental, or simply imaginary is up to you to decide.

also, i only had two years of highschool latin, so im a little rusty. i gravely apologise for my mistake. i was thinking of the stem of the word 'lucis' which also means 'light'. it is the root word of lucifer, luciferous, translucent, and lucas (which, i believe, is why george named his hero luke).

QUOTE (njamilla @ Jun 26 2005, 12:48 PM)
but I won't base interpretations of the SW saga's meaning on them.


when, if at all, did i make interpretations of the saga based on names where there was no 'official' reasons to do so?

in the near future, i would like to compare and contrast jedi to samurai; if anyone would be interested.

This post has been edited by xenduck: 26 June 2005 - 06:37 PM

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#42 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 10 July 2005 - 10:23 PM

The truth about fiction

or

the ‘yippee’ defense

it seems to me that people have a problem with the cherubic anakin yelling ‘yippee!’ in ep I.. Im not sure why. My best guess is that ‘yippee’ is TOO innocent and childlike to be uttered by the future dark lord of the sith, darth vader. They seem to feel that anakin should have burst forth from the ravaged loins of his mother, breathing fire, spitting curses and choking puppies. Perhaps that would have been best, if anakin were meant to be beyond redemption; If the pre-existing arch of the story had not been chiefly concerned with the salvation of vader’s ‘force-ghost’. The fact remains, however, that you can not effect a redemption without first having fallen from grace. Thats why the all-too-cheery exclamation is actually central to the character. Without that impromptu expletive, that was symbolic of anakin’s candid integrity, the entire saga would have been flaccid redundancy. It is important to establish a clear and dramatic/ironic contrast as anakin having once been the polar opposite of his future-self; thats the stuff of legend! While anakin is certainly legendary, or mythic, he is not an allegorical character, static and unchanging, which is why he can appeal to the audience. He is a dynamic character, defined by his progress/regress as an individual. In the introduction to a clockwork orange, the author, anthony burgess, writes:

“the quality of genuine fiction, (is) an art founded on the principle that human beings change.”

If anakin had not been a free-spirited and benevolent child then the saga would have been robbed of virtually all elements of tragedy. And dramatic tragedy is what keeps audiences coming back, what leaves us with the inexorable feeling of an eternal and internal conflict. “yippee” is anakin’s desperate, ecstatic cry to all audiences and storytellers alike, he is shouting out to all generations, “LOOK AT ME! I am pure iconic imagery!”



a few notes:

ya ok, I exaggerated... a little. In kubric’s film adaptation of a clockwork orange the part of the ‘bodybuilder’ is played (superbly) by future darth vader actor, david prowse. Also, reading the introduction, I was forced to look-up the word ‘Pelagerian’. To those like me (who don’t know the word) it means, “The theological doctrine propounded by Pelagius,”. Sorry, njamilla, I cant help it, the name reminds me of darth plaguis.
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#43 User is offline   SithAvenger Icon

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Posted 11 July 2005 - 08:37 PM

Man, keep doing more! thumbsup.gif
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#44 User is offline   JW Wells Icon

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 11:23 AM

QUOTE (xenduck @ Jul 10 2005, 10:23 PM)
it seems to me that people have a problem with the cherubic anakin yelling ‘yippee!’ in ep I.. Im not sure why.


Well, for me it was because it was a cringe-inducing scene. Jake Lloyd was no actor, and the whole thing reminded me I was watching a confused child sitting on a chair in a green room surrounded by computer graphics. Compare and contrast the X-wing attack in Star Wars for reference.

QUOTE (xenduck @ Jul 10 2005, 10:23 PM)
I was forced to look-up the word ‘Pelagerian’. To those like me (who don’t know the word) it means, “The theological doctrine propounded by Pelagius,”. Sorry, njamilla, I cant help it, the name reminds me of darth plaguis.


It's "Pelagian", one of the numerous doctrines condemned as heretical by the Catholic church. The short form is that Pelagius argued that original sin did not exist, and that a completely virtuous life, and thus entrance into Paradise, was possible through human will alone, without the intercession of divine grace.

And I'm sure this is an accident, since "Plague-is" just happens to sound like "Pelagius". I riffed on this in a much earlier post, but given the (lack of) depth shown by other Sith names, I'm confident it's a coincidence.
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#45 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 05:38 PM

D'oh! that pelagian/pelagerian thing was a typo, whoopsey! funny thing is i was trying to be sooo careful, i had the open book in my lap and everything. blushing.gif but hey, i appreciate the additional input. im sure its only an accident too. im just obsessed with little coincidences like that, like d. prowse being in the movie version. the thing is, i use star wars as a mnemonic device, i will always remember pelagius becuase of darth plaguis (sp?).

and i agree 100% about the acting, that poor kid was terrible. if thats the only reason people criticize the character i can certainly understand.
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