[xenduck]

burning questions

huh-huh, thats a pun!

i just read the norton critical edition of beowulf; an amazing poem. at the end, beowulf is burned and buried. now, according to fred c. robinson's essay, the tomb of beowulf, the poet (unknown) was trying to portray beowulf as both pagan and christian. until recently, cremation has been staunchly opposed by christians. pagans are thought to have believed burning the body sent the person's soul straight to valhalla, along with many worldly possessions. this practice probably began for health purposes; and also as a way to keep any particular family from becoming dominantly wealthy through accumulation of said worldly objects. but in beowulf's case, robinson feels that the funeral scene was meant as an allusion to the strictly pagan audience. that beowulf, through reverence and offerings after death, had become a demi-god. this sort of cremation was popular all over europe, but eventually died down (if not out) in the wake of christianity.

i tell you all this because the topic is literature and, after reading beowulf, i was wondering why qui-gon and vader are burned; the above reasons for cremation dont seem to apply to the jedi. is this a traditional jedi funeral? was it the last wishes of the deceased? is it symbolic of the 'disappearing body' trick that qui-gon learns (i assume the jedi were aware of the possibility)? Was it meant to show that vader should have burned all those years ago? Why was qui-gon burned on naboo, and not on coruscant or his home planet? Why would luke figure burning was appropriate? after all, vader (indirectly) burnt luke's aunt and uncle. And there is the possibility anakin did vanish upon his death, and luke was merely burning the armor. is this significant at all? is it discussed in the EU?... just curious.

[xenduck]

theory of galactic relativity

PART: 1

now id like to address an issue that troubles me as much as, if not more than, any other petty, thoughtless, criticism. im referring to the complaint that the star wars universe is too small. that is to say, too many of the main characters are closely/personally connected with each other. this issue is not an issue at all. the characters are certainly interconnected, but this is far from being a flaw; its part of the essential nature of all stories ever told. those connections lend one of the sharpest edges of plausibility to a saga greatly disconnected from reality.

what follows this post will be specific (if not exhaustive) examples of why it is the storytellers’ grandest tradition to build an adventure on the interweaving of the principle characters. i will give (simplified) examples from each of these three categories: myth, legend, and history. the lines between these groups are notoriously difficult to draw, so there will be some unavoidable blending

[xenduck]

theory of galactic relativity

PART: 2

beowulf,
beowulf’s uncle, hygelac was killed by theodobert, the grandson of clovis I, the founder of the merovingian monarchy. beowulf sets out to aid his father’s childhood friend, king hrothgar, against the monster grendel and his mother, who are descendants of the biblical cain.

hercules,
hercules was the son of zeus and a mortal woman. this angered hera, who was the wife and sister of zeus. (technically I should say, herakles, but im more comfortable with hercules). as a son of zeus, hercules was half brother to a host of other demi-gods, including castor & pollux and sarpedon who fought at troy. sarpedon was killed by patroclus, the cousin and lover of achilles. achilles, asclepius, and hercules were all trained by the centaur chiron. once trained, hercules performed many heroic deeds; he freed prometheus from the mountain, where zeus (his father) had chained him. prometheus was the giver of fire to mortals and the brother of epimetheus, the husband of pandora..

alexander the great,
socrates was the teacher of plato, plato was the teacher of aristotle, aristotle was hired by king phillip of macedonia to teach his son alexander. all of which, in their own right, made incalculable impacts on western civilization.

julius caesar,
julius caesar fled from rome because he refused to divorce the daughter of cinna, the dictator sulla’s political enemy. when sulla died, caesar returned and climbed the political ranks. Caesar joined forces with cassius and pompey to gain control of the senate. pompey became caesar’s great rival in the roman civil war after the death of julia. julia was the wife of pompey and daughter of caesar; she was the principle bond between them. caesar pursued pompey to egypt, where, after pompey was killed, he met cleopatra. cleopatra was a ptolemy, a descendant of the general who served alexander the great. caesar was assassinated by (among others) brutus and cassius. caesar’s grandnephew, octavian (later augustus) inherited his power. octavian fought against cleopatra and caesar’s general, marc antony. eventually, augustus, would have caesar declared a descendant of aneas, the son of aphrodite and progenitor of the roman people, who was the most important trojan hero of the illiad. the aneaid was written by virgil under the reign of augustus.

[xenduck]

theory of galactic relativity

PART: 2.5

arthur,
king uther, with the machinations of merlin, conceives a son with his enemies wife, igraine. arthur, following merlin’s urging, pulls a sword from a stone and becomes king of britain. tragedy strikes when his best friend falls in love with his wife. his most treacherous enemy is his sister, morgan le fay. arthur has a son by his other sister, morgawse. their son, mordred, eventually kills arthur at the cost of his own life.

robin hood,
robin hood serves with king richard in the crusades only to return and find his father slain. His land stolen by prince john, richard’s brother, and the sherif who is trying to marry robin’s childhood friend, maid marion. robin and marion are eventually wed in a ceremony presided over by king richard.

musashi,
musashi is the most famous swordsman in japan. he was the rival of yagyu munenori. munenori was instructor to the shogun and a correspondent to takuan soho. takuan was a famous monk, inventer of a type of pickle, and childhood friend of musashi.

it has been demonstrated, through myth, legend and history, that many, many characters have very few degrees of separation. it is a fundamental truth of the human condition that the most powerful and the most influential people form an interpersonal knot of gordian proportions. hey, thanks for reading! if anyone would like to learn more or just check my facts, i would be happy to provide a specific bibliography; im too lazy to do a complete one if no one cares.

[DarthTherion]

Xenduck, thanks for some very interesting posts; I appreciate it, and I'm sure that many people who've been reading this thread feel the same way.

I liked the observation on the cremation of Vader, especially, since it is something I've often turned over in my mind as well. There is a nice symmetry created by the presence of fire -- and the process of burning -- at the birth and death of Darth Vader. It reminds us of the power of fire both to destroy and purify, to burn away what was once good in awful perdition, but also to dissolve the veils of illusion in which we cloak ourselves.

Cremation "feels" correct for a Jedi funeral (I had not thought that it might be a hint of the ability to merge with the Force -- a symbol reminiscent of the phoenix that perhaps only advanced initiates or Masters of the order would understand fully). One might even say that it is an archetypal ceremony that Luke was able to sense.

That is a very interesting point about Vader indirectly "burning" Luke's aunt and uncle -- maybe it could fit the nature of the symbolism as well. Fire burnt out the good in Anakin and was used as a tool of oppression by Vader, but in the end, it is the flames that have come full circle and consummed the armor that allowed him to survive and perpetuate tyranny.

Your notes on legends and interconnection of characters in most myths are enjoyable. Lucas obviously wanted to focus on a very few characters in these films. I understand he intended the movies to be told from the perspective of the droids -- or rather, with the assumption that the audience = the droids, in the tradition of the two bumbling idiots following the heroes in Kurosawa.

Something to consider -- before the release of the PT, Star Wars fans were cast in the role of C3PO, only able to understand the last three chapters. Now, after the release of the PT, we can watch with a full understanding of the history. We're like R2D2, who knows the entire story.

This post is rambling and not very well put together, since it is very late, and I am about to fall asleep -- but I glanced at this thread earlier and thought I would share some of my thoughts. Great job, and keep up the good work.

[xenduck]

hey thanks! i was begenning to feel a bit lonely. (hearing crickets)

i was flowndering, trying to come up with possible symbolism for the cremation aspect of star wars, and you summed it up perfectly.
i had heard that the droids were fashioned after two characters in a kurosawa film, but your point about C3PO and R2D2 representing the audience was truly insightful.

[xenduck]

Traders & Traitors
the rise and fall of the republic in terms of mercantilism and militancy

*xenduck timidly approaches the council, coughs anxiously... *

Im a little nervous about bringing up this old topic, especially since it was already debated so articulately in another thread. *nods to helena* when I first posted on the issue of the republic’s lack of an army, I was unprepared for how vehemently the idea would be opposed. I made a few vague literary references and only managed a haphazard counter-argument. This time, however, I have fully developed my theory on how a galactic government may reign without a military; aided with specific references. I offer this lengthy essay, not in defense, but rather in reverence to lucas’s (accidental?) Genius. But I emphasize that this is only a theory, for very little is known about the old republic. Therefore, I was forced to make several assumptions:

1. That the republic was formed through the use of a military and the military persisted for decades or centuries after the inception of the republic.
2. There is no recognizable, large-scale, threat outside the republic.
3. The majority of planets cannot maintain their present level of technology and culture without a complicated network of inter-planetary trade.


once the republic was formed, and their were no more protracted battles to fight, the army would have become stagnate and atrophied. Without conquering new territories and no more booty flowing into the military, the standing army would become to costly to maintain. There would be considerable downsizing for a long time before being disbanded. Thats not to say the army would disappear; far from. After all, Im not implying that the republic was so benevolent as not to require the threat of force in certain instances. If the units of the army are to be made up of all the divergent races of the galaxy, then it is reasonable that those units would best be maintained on the planet(s) of their origin. There would be a system similar to bastard feudalism wherein each system, upon entrance into the republic, would pledge either military might, or the funds by which military might can be purchased. This relies on the principle that open war is a rare occurrence in the republic (say, every thousand years). But why should war be so rare? Well, even the quintessential general, sun tzu, knew that battle and bloodshed were not the only, nor the best, solutions:

“attaining one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the pinnacle of excellence, subjugating the enemy’s army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence.”

he presumes there is an army by which indirect pressure can achieve such favorable circumstances; yet there are forces which may exert pressure other than an army. It is reasonable that the state of technology the galaxy enjoys is not the result of a particular planet, but rather the conglomeration of various resources and know-how from various systems (this is most evident on tattooine, hoth, kamino and especially coruscant). In regardes to natural resources, in common sense, Thomas paine writes

“where nature hath given one, she has withheld the other”

This necessity of commerce would create a web of interdependency that would not easily, nor willingly, be broken. Each planet (or federation of planets) would know that cutting itself off from the whole would be disastrous. An aggressor would be subject to trade restrictions, imposed on it by all other systems. In Utopia, more writes how this is a very effective form of persuasion,

“So long as no bodily harm is done, their anger goes no further than cutting off trade relations with that nation till restitution is made... They think they have really acted with manly virtue when they have won a victory such as no animal except man could have won-a victory achieved by strength of understanding.”

The utopians were not above going to war, and they had an army, but they considered its employment only in the gravest of circumstances. They preferred to undermine the enemy violently, but not militantly,

“they know very well that for large enough sums of money the enemy’s soldiers can themselves be bought, or set at odds with one another, either secretly or openly.”

These circumstances can be avoided, however. Paine (the greatest asset to my theory) writes,

“peace with trade, is preferable to war without it.
our plan is commerce, and that, well attended to, will secure us the peace and friendship of all.
trade will always be a protection.”

The systems, having developed a long history of trade and friendship-being dependent on the entire republic to coordinate commerce-would be reluctant to act aggressively. Indeed, in a democracy, there simply would be no need for interplanetary conflict and thus no need for a federal army. Paine,

“No man can assign the least pretense for his fears, on any other grounds, that such as are truly childish and ridiculous, that one colony will be striving for superiority over another... Perfect equality affords no temptation”

in guliver’s travels, swift tells of a nation that knows nothing of foreigners, or external dangers, yet still maintains an army; but a much depleted army of little consequence,

“if that can be called an army which is made up of trademen in the several cities, and farmers in the country, whose commanders are only the nobility and gentry, without pay or reward.”

This reflects the idea of feudalism that could operate effectively, especially, without an external threat. The only reasons for fighting are expressed as such,

“Nobility often contending for power, the people for liberty, and the king for absolute dominion.”

as there is no king in the republic, and the people are already free, the only danger is the nobility, which would be checked by their own greed. Paine, once again,

“In military numbers, the ancients far exceeded the moderns: for trade being the consequence of population, men become too much absorbed thereby to attend to any thing else. commerce diminishes the spirit, both of patriotism and military defense... the more men have to lose, the less willing are they to venture.”

Trade emerges as the single most important unifying factor in the republic, but inevitably, there will be violent outbreaks which require direct and overpowering force to contain. In most cases, the existence of planetary armies (such as the gungan’s and the trade federation’s) would suffice in quelling the uprising. But what if even that should fail? Thats where the jedi come in. The guardians of peace and justice. In this thread, I have already related jedi to the guardians in plato’s republic; here is a further comparison,

“their function being to see that friends at home shall not wish, nor foes abroad, be able to harm our state. Their function being to assist the rulers in the execution of their decisions.”

Also, the samurai legend, miyamoto musashi writes in his book of five rings that,

“A stand against many opponents is when an individual fights against a group...it is possible to take on one opponent, or ten, or even twenty opponents, with peace of mind.”

Imagine that each guardian had the fighting ability contained in the teachings of musashi, and you would have a powerful warrior. Then imagine that warrior possess powers beyond any normal being, the warrior can call upon the fundamental ‘force’ of all living things to influence a situation to his/her advantage. One jedi would be a warrior worth a thousand, or ten thousand, or even twenty thousand. They would be an insurmountable deterrent that would, in times of peace, totally, utterly, replace an army.

from a certain point of view, the jedi destroyed the army, therefore, it is only natural that the army destroy the jedi. Sidious, in a stroke of brilliance, struck directly at the heart of galactic unity; the trade federation. disrupting trade means impoverishment to certain systems, impoverishment leads to disenfranchisement, which in turn allows for sedition. When the dependency on trade failed to protect the network of systems, the senate should have stepped in and taken decisive action. Unfortunately, palpatine was working to subvert the democratic system and allowing the seeds of discontent to grow and thrive. When the commerce became unreliable, secret alliances were made, until a significant percentage of systems were able to set up their own economy and present a stable threat to the republic. Why the republic was unable to save itself has already been propounded on this thread.

Most definitely, it is unrealistic for a society to thrive without a military, but I hope I’ve presented a plausible circumstance so that the willing suspension of disbelief can overcome any remaining uncertainties. In the end, all I ask is that anyone who criticizes lucas for conceiving of such a society, remember well that they are also criticizing a long list of well-respected intellects. and by the way, i spent a long time comming up with that fancy title, so you better like it!

This post has been edited by xenduck: 27 July 2005 - 10:33 PM

[ElaynaTang]

Why were Qui Gon and Vader cremated?

A fire utilizes energy and converts it into heat and releases that energy out into the air. It takes the energy from wood and oxygen to burn, but then pours that energy out as heat, which everyone around can feel.

The "Force" is an ongoing energy in the universe that needs to be kept in balance. It never dies and is never created much like energy. I feel that it is very symbolic to have these people that use the force cremated upon their death. This is representative to me of the idea that the force and energy inside them is being released out into the world, the same way that the energy of the fire is released as heat.

I tried to explain what was in my head, I hope it came out clearly...

[Despondent]

Profound observation.

Do the midis make screaming sounds as the ashes rise?

[diligent_d]

"If a Jedi falls in the forest, can you hear the midi--" Ok, never mind.

[xenduck]

in regards to my previous post,

has anyone trudged through my latest...'essay'? i created and sustained this thread chiefly for my own entertainment. i just love comparative literature and theoretical debates. i know, im a dork. so naturally i dreamt of more debates on this topic. am i to take silence as compliance? has the majority of readers agreed with what has been said (by me and/or others)? or do my allusions not even warrant a dignifing remark? or, worse yet, am i simply to long-winded?

*sigh* my graditude to those who have replied, but i was hoping for more feedback from everyone...

[Zatoichi]

Well I don't know if you will read this, but I came upon this subject by chance and read it all over the course of several hours. This is really great stuff. Maybe a little too in depth, but absolutely great. This is especially true with your use of references to back up your opinions.

On Darth Maul. He is tragic in that he could not overcome his upbringings. He is used exactly as his name states, a weapon. (Expanded Universe) I also don't believe Maul might have ever tried to kill his master in the Sith tradition, had he lived. He was only a tool to be used, just a warrior and an assassin at best. Not someone with enough intelligence for political maneuvering or strategic planning.

On Darth Tyrannous. I believe that he really was trying to make the galaxy a better place. The Republic was ruining itself, partially from greed, and partially from the machinations of the Sith. Of course his dialogue in both movies was crappy, and I don't think it fully conveyed this image. I think one of his problems movie wise was trying to make him look like an evil villain, but having him hold these kinds of ideas. If perhaps this is the way he was, then maybe that explains why he doesn't just kill Obi-wan in Episodes II and III. Especially in III, where he only traps Obi-wan instead of crushing and killing him. I find it interesting that he and Sidious were kind of opposed.

On Darth Sidious. He is the archetypal villain. He is scheming, manipulative, power hungry, intelligent, confident, so on and so forth. The name probably does come from insidious, but can you think of anything else name wise that might invoke this sort of image. After Palpatine becomes the emperor, I think he kinda drops the name. Vader never uses it. Also I read somewhere that Palpatine tried to get people to forget about the Jedi and the Sith

On Darth Plagueis. I have really no other idea other than the name might have just come from plague. Also in Episode III, I think that the way Palpatine tells the story Plagueis might not have been such a bad guy. What kind of Sith would even bother to create life, unless of course it was evil? Maybe he was a Sith that tapped into emotions other than those considered evil. For example joy and love. Also he was Sidious' master, check the Star Wars databank entry for Sith

On Darth Vader. Yes it means dark father. It is what Lucas intended. Check the special features on the DVD collection and he will say it on one of the documentaries.

On to the EU

Darth Bane. Besides what his name states, there is very little information on him. Perhaps it is because he creates the system that becomes the downfall of the Jedi.

Darth Revan and Malak. That was their actual names that they used. Maybe they just didn't feel like coming up with anything else.

Darth Bandon. abandon?

Darth Treya, Nihilus, and Sion. All I know is what I learned from playing the game. It was betrayal, hunger, and something else, in that order.

Also what about Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, Naga Sadow, Kaan, Ludo Cresh, and a ton of other dark side users from the distant (in terms of the Star Wars timeline) past, the Emperor's hands, and dark side characters from the videogames and such.

I would love feedback on all of this.

Now, one thing that I cannot get over. Is Anakin the stupidest person of all time? Palpatine basically told him that his master knew how to create and save life, and that he taught his apprentice everything he knew. Even if Anakin didn't figure out that Plagueis was his master, Palpatine at least had a general idea of how to do it. So why exactly did all of the Jedi need to die first. Couldn't Anakin have reasoned that intsead of taking time to kill his former friends and allies, he and Sidious could have figured out the damn process? Besides that, he does think that Sidious knows it. This is why he wanted Palpatine to stand fair trial. Besides Anakin being impossibly idiotic, or just not thinking at all, does anyone have an answer?

[Lord Aquaman]

Well, bane is another word for suffering or hardship, so I imagine Darth Bane had a knack for inflicting misery on people.

Other posts, by the way, were great.

I imagne a name like 'Han Solo' speaks for itself - solo means to do things on your own, and Han seemed to prefer doing things on his own rather than get bogged down in something that didn't concern him.

Lando Calrissian's name I've got no idea what the deeper meaning is, if there is one.

[Despondent]

Lando Lakes was taken already.

[WalkingCarpet]

Lando Lakes was taken already.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What about Lando Hopenglorie?