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Missing reason to hate Ep1: "...you trained me..."

#31 User is offline   Darth Sane Icon

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 09:50 PM

Helen and snaithbert are absolutely right. I'm getting frustraited trying to convince people myself anyway. read some of my posts helen and snaithbert, i'm sure you'll agree its just that i'm tired. Not one person in this forum has muscled up the guts to admit and say "im wrong" or "your right, i didn't look at it that way" I guess the trick is to become very powerfull and successful so that you can out-do all the things that you critique. That way people will truelly belive you. With enough power and influence, and in a perfect world, all of the people in this chat room who disagree with us could be purged or put to work in concentration camps. they must all learn to "respect" the truth. I will try my hardest to see this vision through. I'm signing out. peace.
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#32 User is offline   Giff Icon

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 05:04 PM

QUOTE
Where in heck did Qui-Gon turn up from... and why such a weird name.


Hey, its no better/worse than Obi-Wan...or Yoda...or Ki Adi Mundi...or Plo Koon...or....you get my drift.
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#33 User is offline   modhatter Icon

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 05:39 PM

QUOTE (Giff @ Jun 4 2005, 03:04 PM)
Hey, its no better/worse than Obi-Wan...or Yoda...or Ki Adi Mundi...or Plo Koon...or....you get my drift.


Although, that makes me wonder too... If youo at the scripts for ESB and RotJ, they seem to have almost completely dropped Obi-Wan in favor of Ben. The only time I can think of when he is referref to as Obi-Wan is by Vader, talking to the Emperor about Luke not having Obi-Wan any more... From the first time we see him on Hoth, he is being called Ben. Almost makes me think that Obi-Wan is largely a ceremonial name. Sort of like how a Pope or King takes a name of office.

Now, imagine if you will that, instead of beating us over the head that Anakin will turn evil, blah blah blah, we actually have something like the early drafts for A New Hope... You have Ben just completing his training under Master Yoda, and being given the ceremonial name of Obi-Wan Kenobi, In the same story, you have a father, Kane Skywalker, his two sons Justin and Bink, and his daughter Beru. Between Skywalker and the future "aunt" Beru, we know that either Justin or Bink must eventually complete the trials and become Anakin., But which?

So much of the folly of the prequel series is that we already KNOW what is going to happen. But, by using elements that already have some basis in the original trilogy, you could actually create drama.

Plus, as many of us believe, a large part of Star Wars' success comes from Han Solo, the rogue, the cad, the one who is essentially a good guy but isn't squeaky clean. It's hard to use Obi-Wan to recreate that kind of magic. But the one who will come to be known as Anakin, he is a truly great pilot, and could be a much more dashing, romantic, exciting character, and also be dedicated to self-preservation and a bit of a lovable jerk.

After all, look at the development of Lando. Can't you just see the pre-production meeting? Harrison doesn't know if he wants to do a third movie? Stick him in Carbonite. That way we're safe no matter what he chooses. But do we have an Episode 6 without Han? Sure we do... We'll make him the original owner of the Falcon, make him another basically nice guy who is also dedicated to self-preservation and a bit of a lovable jerk. We'll have him flirt with Leia the first time he sees her, and we'll even give him a name that sorta rhymes with Han... thus, Lando is born. Why didn't George Lucas use the same understanding of basic character development to create some prequel characters we actually care about, not because we know what will happen in the later episodes, but because they are actially interesting RIGHT NOW.

It's impossible for me to belive that George Lucas couldn't've called up Timothy Zahn or Lawrence Kasdan or SOMEbody and said, "Hey, I'm finally doing the prequels. Here's the basic story. Can you help me structure it for three parts, fact check it to make sure it's consistent with the original trilogy, etc?" We could have gotten a really amazing trilogy. Instead, we get 10 minutes here and there that would be really cool, except it's surrounded by 20 minutes on either side that is embarassibgly bad and doesn't jive with what we already know.
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#34 User is offline   DJJ Icon

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 05:52 PM

Ouch this forum's got a bit nasty and personal! Just thought I'd throw in my tupenny's worth seeing as I'm bored and avoiding work. Chefelf's idea to point out inconsistencies was fun and made me think about the film which sadly did throw up a lot of inconsistencies because I thought about it more than simply allowing myself to be convinced by everything in a film which is cool. But I agree with Dunedain that no narrative is going to be 100% coherent, I also agree that the PT is weaker because its inconsistencies are more obvious and of a greater number. However due to the fact that they are prequels this is going to be an inherent problem. Hence efforts to fix inconsistencies are cool as well because we get to place our own thoughts and ideas into the movies and I thank you Dunedain and Darth Sane for doing so and putting some discussion into the fora. I'm not sure I'm entirely convinced but some of the ideas thrown about were at least possibilities which is cool so cheers!
PS Dunedain why did you get kicked off theforce.net?

This post has been edited by DJJ: 04 June 2005 - 05:53 PM

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#35 User is offline   floppydisk Icon

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 06:33 PM

QUOTE (Giff @ Jun 4 2005, 05:04 PM)
Hey, its no better/worse than Obi-Wan...or Yoda...or Ki Adi Mundi...or Plo Koon...or....you get my drift.

That's what I keep trying to tell people... dry.gif
QUOTE (Theodor Herzl)
If you will it, it is no dream.
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#36 User is offline   Giff Icon

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 07:15 PM

Also, Darth Tyrannus (aka Dooku) was a former Padawan of Yoda, as mentioned in AOTC. Qui-Gon himself was a padawan under the "White Wizard" tongue.gif ...and I wouldnt be surprised if Samuel L. Jackson had some sort of tie-in to this little family tree.



I'm surprised nobody really talks/nitpicks about this much. wink.gif
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#37 User is offline   Jaded Wolf Icon

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 07:17 PM

QUOTE (Helena @ May 31 2005, 01:32 PM)
Newton was a genius; Qui-Gon most emphatically is not. And Newton had thousands of years of other people's work to build on - in Qui-Gon's case we're supposed to believe that he just 'happened' to become one with the Force when no one ever had before? It had never been the 'will' of the Force for this to happen to any previous Jedi over the past 25,000 years? Give me a fucking break. You can accept this crap if you want to; I will not.

The movies never made clear if other Jedi in the past had even tinkered with the "living Force". How do we not know that Qui-Gon had been playing around with someone else's theories?
"And shepherds we shall be for Thee, my Lord, for Thee. Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command. So we shall flow a river forth unto Thee and teeming with souls shall it ever be. In Nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti!!!"
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#38 User is offline   Darth Sane Icon

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Posted 05 June 2005 - 12:20 AM

Exactly, "how do we know" ? which is why it only confuses people, which is why its extrenuous and unnessessary.
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#39 User is offline   ernesttomlinson Icon

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Posted 05 June 2005 - 11:10 AM

From the first time we see him on Hoth, he is being called Ben.

This is misleading. The passive sentence construction conceals something important: the only fellow who calls Obi-Wan "Ben" is Luke. Yoda never refers to Obi-Wan by name at all. And of course Luke would call Obi-Wan "Ben". When he got to know Kenobi on Tatooine he knew him as "Ben" and didn't learn his real name until later. Makes sense to me.
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#40 User is offline   modhatter Icon

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Posted 05 June 2005 - 12:51 PM

QUOTE (ernesttomlinson @ Jun 5 2005, 09:10 AM)
From the first time we see him on Hoth, he is being called Ben.

This is misleading.  The passive sentence construction conceals something important:  the only fellow who calls Obi-Wan "Ben" is Luke.  Yoda never refers to Obi-Wan by name at all.  And of course Luke would call Obi-Wan "Ben".  When he got to know Kenobi on Tatooine he knew him as "Ben" and didn't learn his real name until later.  Makes sense to me.



But actually... no. It is also the script itself which calls him Ben. Not Obi-Wan.
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#41 User is offline   ernesttomlinson Icon

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 02:07 PM

Hey, I go by what's on screen -shrug- Not much else I can do.
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#42 User is offline   modhatter Icon

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 03:08 PM

QUOTE (ernesttomlinson @ Jun 6 2005, 12:07 PM)
Hey, I go by what's on screen -shrug-  Not much else I can do.


Yes, but even using that logic... when Luke mentions "old Ben," he doesn't even know that he and Obi-Wan are the same person. And from the sounds of it, there is no reason for Luke to have ever personally known an "old hermit." He doesn't seem to know where Ben actually lives, just that he is "out in this direction somewhere." Each seems to have a cursory ubnderstanding of who the other is. Ben knows Luke before he can introduce himself, and there is nothing to make you think Luke is surprised that Ben knows him [i.e. there is no indication that Ben knows him only because he's been guarding him from a distance], but there is also no real reason given in the source document [i.e. the film] why Luke wouldn't call him Obi-Wan on Hoth.

The point being... you have Vader, who know Obi-Wan the Jedi and still refers to him as Obi-Wan. And you have Leia, who is on a "diplomatic mission," who requests help of Obi-Wan. But you have Luke, who seems to know more OF Ben Kenobi than he knows him on a first-name basis, so to speak. But once they start traveling together, Luke knows that Ben is actually the Obi-Wan that Leia sent her message to, but still uses Ben. Which supports the possibility that Obi-Wan is a ceremonial name. Perhaps even a title, like Buddha or Mahatma... Consider how, formally, a former President is still called Mr. President.

Again, it's just a possibility, but it's a possibility supported by the original trilogy that could have been useful in constructing a more compelling storyline for the prequels, without destroying the continuity.
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#43 User is offline   Giff Icon

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 07:05 PM

QUOTE
but there is also no real reason given in the source document [i.e. the film] why Luke wouldn't call him Obi-Wan on Hoth.


As Alfred the butler said in Batman Forever, "...old habits die hard."
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#44 User is offline   modhatter Icon

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 07:52 PM

QUOTE (Giff @ Jun 6 2005, 05:05 PM)
As Alfred the butler said in Batman Forever, "...old habits die hard."


Perhaps, but again... there's not a lot to suggest that this was ever a habit.

Let's examine it this way... Before the R2 incident, Ben has certainly never talked to Luke about the Force. Never corrected Owen's stories about Luke's father... There's not much to suggest that they knew eachother any better than a neighbor kid knows Mean Old Lady Hickenlooper who lives in the scary house at the end of the street. Once the neighbor kid meets Mean Old Lady Hickenlooper and comes in for milk and cookies, the kid will probably not keep calling her Mean Old Lady Hickenlooper, no matter how old the habit.

Similarly, it's possible to say that Luke might have kept calling him Ben on his homeplanet, trying to maintain the secret of his identity. (Although, again, it's hard to imagine that Obi-Wan Kenobi's enemies are going to be fooled by the pretense... "Wait, no, he's not the one we want. This one wearing Jedi robes through town is BEN Kenobi... Move along, move along.") But once Vader has killed him, the jig is up, and there is really no reason to keep up the pretense.

Again though... we're speculating. But I repeat, there is no good reason in the original trilogy why Luke wouldn't call Obi-Wan Obi-Wan on Hoth. So, unlike so many choices Lucas did make that contradicted the Original Trilogy, if Lucas had decided that Obi-Wan was just a ceremonial name, given to him upon completion of the Trials, it would not have conflicted with episodes 4-6. And, in fact, making it a ceremonial name makes MORE sense, given the whole Ben/Obi-Wan usage issues in the Original Trilogy. Further, that same issue would make Anakin the ceremonial name, creating more mystery in the prequels, AND avoiding that whole awful "Ani" nickname.
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#45 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 09:31 PM

Well, Aragorn was known as Strider to his close companions for nearly 100 pages.

Still, in Jedi, Luke distastefully welcomes "Obi-wan."


I don't know what I'm arguing here. Didn't Ben live beyond the Dune Sea?

Which brings up the thought: Do you mean THE Dune Sea? Because on a planet that's nothing but desert, THE Dune Sea must have Really been Something!
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