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Missing reason to hate Ep1: "...you trained me..."

#16 User is offline   modhatter Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 04:12 PM

QUOTE (Helena @ May 31 2005, 01:32 PM)
Newton was a genius; Qui-Gon most emphatically is not. And Newton had thousands of years of other people's work to build on - in Qui-Gon's case we're supposed to believe that he just 'happened' to become one with the Force when no one ever had before? It had never been the 'will' of the Force for this to happen to any previous Jedi over the past 25,000 years? Give me a fucking break. You can accept this crap if you want to; I will not.


And, again... if Qui-Gon had actually learned these skills... why doesn't he disappear like Obi-
Wan and Yoda???

Fake, weak, and inconsistent.
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#17 User is offline   Veer Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 04:33 PM

QUOTE (modhatter @ May 31 2005, 02:12 PM)
And, again... if Qui-Gon had actually learned these skills... why doesn't he disappear like Obi-
Wan and Yoda???

Fake, weak, and inconsistent.



I think it could that when a Jedi prepares for death he can 'disappear', but if he is killed by suprise (like Qui-Gon) then his body remains. Atleast that is the explenation I came up with.
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#18 User is offline   modhatter Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 04:45 PM

Yeah... lemme just reiterate that, as a confessed newbie, I started this discussion with little more than about 30 years of watching the original trilogy. Just an average, casual fan. Yet, even I watch the PT and say, over and over, "Wow, I don't think that makes any sense." And within about five minutes, I can look up the final scripts of the original trilogy and CONFIRM that it doesn't make any sense.

I mean, as early as Episode 5, certain questions started to creep into the series. For instance, if Luke is now leading the rebels, who leads them when he goes to Dagobah? And how do they know Luke Skywalker? He and Vader are never in the same room. And Vader doesn't seem too worried about blowing up his son on the moon of Yavin, and barely hesitates in the Death Star trench... But these were mostly eliptical details that have GOOD explanations if you think about them for half a second.

But with the prequels, thinking about such questions for even a half a second will leave you more unsatisfied than you were before.
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#19 User is offline   modhatter Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 04:56 PM

QUOTE (Veer @ May 31 2005, 02:33 PM)
I think it could that when a Jedi prepares for death he can  'disappear', but if he is killed by suprise (like Qui-Gon) then his body remains. Atleast that is the explenation I came up with.


Perhaps... but again, why is it only Qui-Gon that discovers this in thousands of years?

His explanation is this:
QUI -GON: (V.O.) Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training, you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Sith.

But, mustn't you retain your consciousness to make the great discovery of... retaining your consciousness?
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#20 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 05:01 PM

Also, Qui-Gon didn't die immediately - he had time to beg Obi-Wan to train Anakin, so he must have been fairly well prepared. And Obi-Wan, who was killed instantly, did disappear. wacko.gif
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#21 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 07:44 PM

QUOTE (Dunedain @ May 31 2005, 01:50 PM)
Okay, allow me to be the voice of contrasted ideas:
That's true. But it's also true that Yoda trains the "younglings" (yeah- I'm not really all too affectionate on that term, either: but that's the term), which is shown in e2. What is not shown, however, is exactly who trains Obi-Wan in the "Jedi arts". Since all that is given is Obi-Wan's words in e5, then the information is that it was Yoda.


"was i much younger when you trained me?"
Obi wan - refering to the mid twenties luke skywalker [ESB].

...so much for that theory then... rolleyes.gif
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#22 User is offline   Dunedain Icon

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 05:29 PM

QUOTE (Helena @ May 31 2005, 04:32 PM)
Newton was a genius; Qui-Gon most emphatically is not. And Newton had thousands of years of other people's work to build on - in Qui-Gon's case we're supposed to believe that he just 'happened' to become one with the Force when no one ever had before? It had never been the 'will' of the Force for this to happen to any previous Jedi over the past 25,000 years? Give me a fucking break. You can accept this crap if you want to; I will not.


See, I'm sorry, and nothing personal intended at all- but that is simply the nadir of poor reasoning. "Newton was; Qui-Gon...is not" is just a statement. You don't even realize that you're using the same information in application to both people- and yet drawing opposite conclusions.

Both Newton and Qui-Gon has predecessors in their work. Both came to a single and unique realization in respect to said work. Yet, somehow you can "believe" that one came to a previously unknown realization, but object that the other did.

It doesn't even make sense.
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#23 User is offline   SPQR Icon

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 05:40 PM

QUOTE (Dunedain @ Jun 1 2005, 11:29 PM)
See, I'm sorry, and nothing personal intended at all- but that is simply the nadir of poor reasoning. "Newton was; Qui-Gon...is not" is just a statement. You don't even realize that you're using the same information in application to both people- and yet drawing opposite conclusions.

Both Newton and Qui-Gon has predecessors in their work. Both came to a single and unique realization in respect to said work. Yet, somehow you can "believe" that one came to a previously unknown realization, but object that the other did.

It doesn't even make sense.



The problem, once again, is that ham handed GL had the lines concerning Qui-Gon fall out of Yoda's mouth like bricks. They were just put there like a bad patch on an innertube, to keep all the gas he had so far pumped into ROTS from blowing forth.
He spent three hours with the film, couldn't he have added a few minutes, or an appearance by Qui-Gon at least? Maybe not, Neeson's rates have skyrocketed, and GL just doesn't have that kind of money to spend.
An nescis quantilla sapientia mundus regatur
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#24 User is offline   Dunedain Icon

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 06:01 PM

snaithbert:

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Why not just accept the fact that Lucas dropped the ball? Coming up with all these explanations doesn't change the fact that if Lucas had done the job right- we wouldn't NEED the explanations in the first place.


Well, I would do that if I thought it mattered. But it doesn't. Every work of fiction has inconsistencies that NEED explanations (if you're of a mind that inconsistencies need explanation). If I say Lucas dropped the ball, then, if I am intellectually honest, I have to say everyone has dropped the ball since all fictitius works have inconsistencies.

>>>

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Because they're not good explanations; they're just feeble attempts to rationalise something that clearly doesn't make sense.


But, you see, that is why I am stating that it is, in fact, you (nothing personal) that is the intellectually dishonest of the two factions. Here is why: I have made points of possibility. You have stated a subjective "they're not good". Okay, so tell me why they are not good.

I know what you are saying, but do you know why you are saying it? Do you see what I am saying? Are your reasons 100% subjective- or is there any objectivity to them? Obviously, there is no point in a person who thinks red is the best color to try and argue that blue not the best color. There's no objective grounds for communication and discussion at all.

At least attempt objective argumentation where there is at least a common standard. Otherwise the argument goes "Sucked" "Good" "Sucked" "Good".

>>>>

snaithbert:

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All we said was "this stuff sucks" not "someone EXPLAIN why it sucks."


Aside from the fact that I don't know who "we" is- can't argue with that. Really, the only reason I am here is because I've been banned from force.net and wanted to talk about the movies. And to kill some time while waiting for "lesbian cowgirls- vol 12: spanking the west" to download.

>>>>

modhatter:

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Let's look at this passage from RotJ:
"When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong...."

For one thing,according to Ep1, Anakin was a good pod racer in one race (he'd never finished ONE before), and he was actually a terrible pilot who got extremely lucky.


Ben: In my experience, there's no such thing as luck.

So, Anakin was a great pilot to do what he did at such a young age.

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But more to the point, when Obi-Wan is Qui-Gon's apprentice, he has not even gone through the trials. He is, in short, not being instructed by Yoda. Yoda even comments that Obi-Wan taking the trials at that point would be EARLY. And, later, when Qui-Gon is dead, Obi-Wan takes Anakin on as a Padawan. That is the relationship Qui-Gon had to Obi-Wan. Which is a blatant contradiction to the original trilogy, no argument about it.


The contradiction being?

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Regardless of who came up with what, ChefElf has a whole long list of things George Lucas didn't get right, including a large number of contradictory events in the prequel series. Even down to the Obi-Wan/Ben question...


Chef Elf's "reasons" were very funny. But they were 100% subjective. You may as well list "1000 reasons to hate the color blue".

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As you answered another point, yes, Leia's mother died when Leia was very young. But not at infancy!!!


How young is young? How long is long? What you're doing is taking subjectives and building semantic arguments on them.

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Infants don't evenYet develop three-dimensional eyesight til about four months.


True. And there is no sound in space. Reason #1 to hate all space orientated sci-fi movies except 2001. But wait- THAT doesn't count, yes?

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Yet Leia is able to remember that her real mother was "very beautiful. Kind, but...sad." So, if we take a HUGE leap and say that Leia can remember these things, we must also accept that her twin can too. Yet Luke says, "I have no memory of my mother. I never knew her."


No. "we must also accept is a false premise". Just because one person remembers something, doesn't mean that everyone else does, too. Why do we remember what we remember and forget what we forget? Who knows. That's just the way it is. I am sure you remember things and ask someone else who was there and they say "I don't remember that".

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And, again... if Qui-Gon had actually learned these skills... why doesn't he disappear like Obi-
Wan and Yoda???


Why. That question gets asked a lot. Why didn't Vader sense that Leia was his daughter in e4 or 5? Who knows. Why didn't Ben tell Luke Vader was his father sooner? Who knows. Why didn't Greedo just shoot Han instead of sitting there giving him time to take his blaster out? Who knows. So, do e4-6 suck because all of your "why"s aren't elaborated upon?

"was i much younger when you trained me?"
Obi wan - refering to the mid twenties luke skywalker [ESB].

Luke was 18 in e4. We don't know who trained Obi-Wan before he went into the field with Qui-Gon. Obviously, since Ben says in e5 that it was Yoda, then it was Yoda. Yoda trained Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan went on missions with Qui-Gon.

Even at the very opening of e1 Obi-Wan said "But Master Yoda said I was to be mindful of the future". So, obviously Obi-Wan was being trained by Yoda at some time prior to being on mission with Qui-Gon.

This post has been edited by Dunedain: 01 June 2005 - 06:10 PM

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#25 User is offline   modhatter Icon

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 06:09 PM

That was a VERY long post, but with very little content. So, to sum up...

No, most writers who are worth their weight in paper DON'T write stories full of inconsistencies. That's simply a fallacy, unsupported by fact. Because your arguments all stem from this fallacy, there's no point debating them. There IS no debate.
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#26 User is offline   Dunedain Icon

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 06:14 PM

QUOTE (modhatter @ Jun 1 2005, 07:09 PM)
That was a VERY long post, but with very little content. So, to sum up...

No, most writers who are worth their weight in paper DON'T write stories full of inconsistencies. That's simply a fallacy, unsupported by fact. Because your arguments all stem from this fallacy, there's no point debating them. There IS no debate.


Well, if you want, give me a work of fiction, and I'll list the inconsistencies. In fact, give me your favorite.

But, if you're tired of it- that's cool.
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#27 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 07:30 PM

QUOTE (Dunedain @ Jun 1 2005, 06:01 PM)
Luke was 18 in e4. We don't know who trained Obi-Wan before he went into the field with Qui-Gon. Obviously, since Ben says in e5 that it was Yoda, then it was Yoda. Yoda trained Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan went on missions with Qui-Gon.

Even at the very opening of e1 Obi-Wan said "But Master Yoda said I was to be mindful of the future". So, obviously Obi-Wan was being trained by Yoda at some time prior to being on mission with Qui-Gon.


Luke wasn't trained in ep4...

yoda refers to qui-gon as obiwans master. in eps 1 and 3.

yoda takes the kindergarden class... according to ep2.

obi wan went on missions with qui gon because that was his master...
i didn't see anikan go off on adventures with captain long neck.

yoda tells evry one to be mindful of the future... that and "hmmp" is pretty much all he does...
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#28 User is offline   diligent_d Icon

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 07:48 PM

QUOTE
"was i much younger when you trained me?"
Obi wan - refering to the mid twenties luke skywalker [ESB].


Yup another direct quote that I forgot about until now and that Lucas apparently did too.
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#29 User is offline   snaithbert Icon

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 08:06 PM

Gentlemen, don't waste your breath.

This dunedain guy is just going to come up with something that "brilliantly" (quotes intended) explains away all our complaints.

This is what the Lucas apologists do. They come up with wild, fanciful tales to fill in the obvious gaps. In many case those tales are more amusing than the actual movies they're meant to defend. But the end result is always the same- they tell us not to complain so much, it's just a movie, ALL movies and stories have holes, etc. The basic logic is that "everything sucks, so don't complain so much about how much THIS sucks."

Sadly that logic don't cut no ice with me. True, many stories have flaws, etc. But for my money, I've rarely seen a story with as MANY flaws as the PT. The fact that so many people notice and are bothered by these flaws should tell people that they can't just be explained away with lowball, wafer thin excuses. I submit they can't be explained at ALL, beyond the obvious explanation that Lucas is a bad writer. But they certainly can't be explained with weak, pointless arguements, and especially not with the suggestion that everything stinks so the PT is just par for the course, etc.

Also dunedain, you gotta lay off the "listen to big daddy" type lectures about how ChefElf's list is subjective, etc. Uhhhh.... no kidding? You mean Chef Elf's list of reasons to hate Star Wars hasn't been officially approved by Lucas himself? Uh oh, we better disregard it, because it's subjective!! Seems to me that EVERYTHING in life is subjective. Chef Elf didn't present that list as fact- he just presented it. He didn't demand you agree with it, he just put it out there so you could read it. No one needs your "Internet 101" refresher course to remind us that Chef Elf's thoughts are only opinions, etc. We all know that that list is just Chef Elf's personal views on the PT. But the reason we're here is because (most of us) agree with those views. So do us a favor and skip all the "that's just your opinion" jazz. We're waaaaaaaaaay past that, here in the year of our lord, 2005.

Frankly if you're reading it on the internet- chances are it's just someone's opinion.

Just stick to telling how it's logical that Anakin built C3P0 or why Elan Sleezbagano is a very vital character in the Star Wars universe.

We may disagree- but of course that's our opinion.
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#30 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 08:43 PM

aside froma bad name for a medical student, leave elan alone...
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