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Missing reason to hate Ep1: "...you trained me..."

#1 User is offline   modhatter Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 02:19 AM

This is my first day here, so forgive me if this has been done to death, but...

Seriously, who the hell is this Qui-Gon guy?

After all, Obi-Wan does talk to Yoda point blank about difficult Jedi, asking Yoda, "Was I any different when you trained me?"

Which just reinforces the fact that George Lucas couldn't be bothered to spend 7 HOURS of his life to re-watch his own movies in order to get the simplest of facts right.

It's bad enough when the original trilogy has moments like the three ghosts and expects me to believe that Obi-Wan's original costume is some kind of Jedi costume. Yeah, way to not draw attention to yourself! Then again, almost every other creature on Tatooine wears the same thing, so I guess every Jawa is also a Jedi... There were some real brain-benders in the original Trilogy, but come on, how hard is it to watch the original trilogy and write down every line that logic demands you not conflict?

On top of everything else... does Qui-Gon serve ANY purpose that justifies this glaring conflict with the original trilogy? Might we not actually get MORE out of the first movie if Yoda had just completed his training of Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan's first duties brought him into contact with Anakin?

Oh well... guess I'll just have to write my OWN prequels, since Goerge ruined his.



And on the topic of botched prequels... a ranting spoiler:



PS... I hope this makes ChefElf's reasons to hate Episode III... Luke makes a very very VERY big point of asking Leia about memories of her REAL mother. And she makes no puzzled reply, she knows eEXACTLY what Luke means, and she answers that her REAL mother died when Leia was very young. Episode III was a vast improvement over the first two, don't get me wrong, but between the deaths of the Jedi (why don't they disappear like Obi-Wan and Yoda?) and that extra crap that seemed to take a half hour, with Padme giving birth, and naming the kids, and delivering the babies to Owen and Beru, and this junk about teaching Obi-Wan how to be "immortal" (it's called being a ghost, otherwise Palpatine made it very clear that the Sith can save the lives of others but not their own, so theoretically Anakin shouldn't be standing with Obi-Wan and Yoda at the end), and then the awful Padme funeral... so much good will I had been feeling toward the movie got shot to hell!
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Posted 31 May 2005 - 02:24 AM

Well... its has been a bit done to death... but I completely agree.

Where in heck did Qui-Gon turn up from... and why such a weird name.
He was a bit disposable wasn't he?
There's a whole lot of stuff about him I don't like, but at least Liam did a credible job.
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#3 User is offline   modhatter Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 03:56 AM

Well, the whole name thing i the Lucas world has always bothered me. Here you have Obi-Wan Kenobi, who mentors Anakin, who begets Leia and... Luke??? I'm sort of reminded of Pocahontas' comment in the Disney movie... You have such an unusual name too! John Smith...

I really do think the only reason Qui-Gon existed was to parallel the whole Sith Lord killing the mentor thing. Yet, the parallel is junk, because this trilogy doesn't follow the apprentice (Obi-Wan -> Luke), but the apprentice's apprentice (Qui-Gon -> Obi-Wan -> Anakin). So, it's really just an empty gesture that only exists to give the fanboys something to think about as they fiddle with their lightsabers.

In a way, Qui-Gon is also responsible for the untimely death of Darth Maul, thus destroying what could have been a REAL parallel between Anakin and Luke. Maul should have lived through Episode II, and begged Anakin to rule with him. Only, instead of throwing himself down a giant hole, THAT is where we should have had the scene of Anakin knowing he should take the prisoner as is the Jedi way, but instead killing him then and there.

Instead, we have Qui-Gon die, and as a result Obi-Wan kills Maul instead of taking him prisoner... Yay for consistency.
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#4 User is offline   Michel Orla Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 10:07 AM

Meh, Qui Gon is like the rest of Episode 1.....not really needed. But of course good Ol Georgie-boy has to bring him back in Episode 3, as the first force user ever to find out how to bring yourself back from the dead! Quite an accomplishment considering Jedi have been around for 5000 years.
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#5 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 10:59 AM

QUOTE (Michel Orla @ May 31 2005, 10:07 AM)
Meh, Qui Gon is like the rest of Episode 1.....not really needed.


I couldn't agree more. Qui-Gon's presence was completely and totally unnecessary. Qui-Gon is just like Obi-Wan in Episodes II and III and Obi-Wan is like the Anakin figure. Qui-Gon's absense as an apparition in the later two movies furthers his superfluousness.

That being said, I really liked Liam Neeson as a Jedi. I really liked Qui-Gon even though the movie would have been all the more better if that character did not exist.
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#6 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 11:56 AM

As a writer sometimes I have to take out good dialogue or characters when they don't fit. I don't think Lucas knows about this. You can be writing a Victorian era detective novel and have an awesome guy in it who wields a chainsaw and calls women "toots" but no matter how cool he is you still have to cut him if he detracts from the over all quality of the greater work. I don't think anyones arguing against Qui Gon, but against his placement.

And another thing. Qui Gon pops up supposedly in the "lets kill the people who tied my mom to 3 sticks" scene to give Anakin the sage advice of "Anakin no". Ok. Where the fuck is this crackass when Anakin decides to ice Dooku? Could he not be arsed? Killing a couple sand people who tied his mom to sticks warrants an aparition, but killing an unarmed opponent while being tempted by a Sith lord does not? Was Palps clouding his vision?

And we all know that if QG had been there Anakin wouldn't have done it. I mean the emperor's argument in favor of killing him consisted entirely of him saying "kill him"

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#7 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 12:41 PM

QUOTE (Michel Orla @ May 31 2005, 04:07 PM)
Meh, Qui Gon is like the rest of Episode 1.....not really needed. But of course good Ol Georgie-boy has to bring him back in Episode 3, as the first force user ever to find out how to bring yourself back from the dead! Quite an accomplishment considering Jedi have been around for 5000 years.

'A thousand generations', actually, so more like 25,000 years - and that's just the time they've been protecting the Republic, so the actual Order must be even older. Yet we're supposed to believe that no one but Qui-Gon, who admits himself that Obi-Wan is 'wiser than I am', has discovered this 'secret' until now. rolleyes.gif Yeah, right. I agree that Qui-Gon should never have been there in the first place, at least not as Obi-Wan's master - Ben says very clearly in ESB that Yoda was the Jedi Master who trained him.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#8 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 01:26 PM

while i dont know much about the history of the jedi, i am prone to speculation...

qui-gon was a renegade jedi, he dified the council, he tried to train whoever whenever he felt like it, and he went around preaching about this thing called 'the living force'. my guess is that his living force was a new concept, and yes new concepts can take thousands of years to appear. this living force helped him learn the secrets of returning from the force. i imagine that the idea of doing so is very old and has been tinkered with, since yoda and obi dont crap there pants when they find out qui-gon is a ghost.

also, qui-gon is the first jedi in at least a thousand years to be killed by a sith. i dont know if that makes any difference but its a variable that needs to be considered. its the whole 'unfinished business' aspect of ghosts. qui-gon did not die in his hut, or give himself up in a fight, he had a job to do and was unwilling to merge with the force until it was done. remember that everything in ep III was "unussual" the force had never been so unbalanced or whatever, another variable.

qui-gon is an odd addition to the star wars galaxy, but i good one. he doesnt need to be mentioned in the OT becuase, as so many have pointed out, when a character doesnt advance the plot anymore he should be relegated to the background.
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#9 User is offline   Dunedain Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 01:50 PM

Okay, allow me to be the voice of contrasted ideas:

QUOTE (modhatter @ May 31 2005, 03:19 AM)
This is my first day here, so forgive me if this has been done to death, but...

Seriously, who the hell is this Qui-Gon guy?

After all, Obi-Wan does talk to Yoda point blank about difficult Jedi, asking Yoda, "Was I any different when you trained me?"


That's true. But it's also true that Yoda trains the "younglings" (yeah- I'm not really all too affectionate on that term, either: but that's the term), which is shown in e2. What is not shown, however, is exactly who trains Obi-Wan in the "Jedi arts". Since all that is given is Obi-Wan's words in e5, then the information is that it was Yoda.

In the military, basic training is still training. Even if you complete basic training, move out into the field under the command of a field sergeant, you can still say "So and so trained me" in reference to basic training, and it's not an incorrect statement. Even if you continue your skills under a different command in the field.

Since Luke is just now learning the basics, it would be right of Obi-Wan to send him to Yoda for "basic training". It would be equally right for Obi-Wan to state that Yoda trained him, since the frame of reference in speaking of Luke is still one of basic training.

Now, Obi-Wan trains Luke in e4. Small parts of this are shown. In e5, Luke is further trained by Yoda. Luke can say "Obi-Wan trained me" and it is a true statement. He can say "Yoda trained me" and it is a true statement. He can say "Yoda and Obi-Wan trained me" and it is a true statement.

Therefore, Obi-Wan was speaking a true statement; and e1-2 are also true representations.

QUOTE
Which just reinforces the fact that George Lucas couldn't be bothered to spend 7 HOURS of his life to re-watch his own movies in order to get the simplest of facts right.


Well, that's not really a fact. At any rate, having written a great deal, I am sure that Lucas probably doesn't even need to re-watch e4-6 to know what happened. I'm sure he is intimately familiar with something like that. It's hard not to be.

QUOTE
It's bad enough when the original trilogy has moments like the three ghosts and expects me to believe that Obi-Wan's original costume is some kind of Jedi costume. Yeah, way to not draw attention to yourself! Then again, almost every other creature on Tatooine wears the same thing, so I guess every Jawa is also a Jedi...


You are really just begging the question: are Jedi robes supposed to be unique, or ordinary? I wouldn't think a long, brown, hooded cloak is supposed to be all too unique. Luke Skywalker's clothes in e4 look similar to Jedi clothes. Throw a long, brown, hooded cloak on him, and he looks like a Jedi.

So, I doubt the Empire was sending out orders "arrest everyone wearing a long, brown, hooded cloak".

QUOTE
On top of everything else... does Qui-Gon serve ANY purpose that justifies this glaring conflict with the original trilogy? Might we not actually get MORE out of the first movie if Yoda had just completed his training of Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan's first duties brought him into contact with Anakin?


Yes, Qui-Gon serves a purpose. Would we get "more" out of the first movie if X? Impossible to say without an acceptable frame of reference with which to judge X.

Now, that the question of Qui-Gon's purpose is even raised says to me, and no offence intended, that you are not getting the basic gist of the story. Qui-Gon's purpose is to show what the Jedi order should be but isn't. All through e1 we are shown a glaring difference in Qui-Gon and the rest of the Jedi. To the point that he is not on the council because of his defiance of the council's ways. "I shall do what I must, Obi-Wan" he says. So, Qui-Gon sees a deficiancy creeping into the Jedi order, and he is fighting it.

The deficiany is a lack of believing in others. Qui-Gon is compassionate. He befriends Jar-Jar (face it, none of you would- and neither would the Jedi; Obi-Wan stating point-blank that he thinks Jar-Jar is a pathetic lifeform.) He befriends Anakin, realizes the boy's potential, believes in him, and goes out of his way to help him.

The Jedi order doesn't believe in Anakin, they show no compassion and refuse to train him. They're stuck in dogmatic and unbending codes. Qui-Gon isn't. Qui-Gon always kneels down when he talks to Anakin- eye to eye. This is symbolic of "grace" and in Semitic languages the two phrases "kneel to speak" and "grace" are expressed by the same word because of the basic notion of the act.

No doubt, one wonders (albeit ficitiously hypothetically) what Anakin's fate would have been had Qui-Gon not been killed. The thrust of the story seems to say that, had the council been more like Qui-Gon, and believed in the boy, and trusted him- things would have turned out differently. The leader of the council, Mace, says "I don't trust him". Qui-Gon did.

That is the basic purpose of the character. Obi-Wan couldn't be used for this part since the Qui-Gon character had to be removed from Anakin's life, and be replaced by Palpatine, in order for the events of e3 to play themselves out.

QUOTE
And on the topic of botched prequels... a ranting spoiler:
PS... I hope this makes ChefElf's reasons to hate Episode III... Luke makes a very very VERY big point of asking Leia about memories of her REAL mother. And she makes no puzzled reply, she knows eEXACTLY what Luke means, and she answers that her REAL mother died when Leia was very young.


She did.

QUOTE
Episode III was a vast improvement over the first two, don't get me wrong, but between the deaths of the Jedi (why don't they disappear like Obi-Wan and Yoda?)


Because Qui-Gon was able to retain his consciousness after death being in tune with the living force- the other Jedi weren't, because they weren't in tune with the will of the force, like Qui-Gon was. That's the whole point of Yoda and Obi-Wan having to re-train under Qui-Gon. They should've listened to him in the first place, but they didn't; so the force wiped their order out.

QUOTE
and this junk about teaching Obi-Wan how to be "immortal" (it's called being a ghost, otherwise Palpatine made it very clear that the Sith can save the lives of others but not their own


Palpatine was lying about being able to save others. He revealed this when he said that "only one has passed into immortality; together, I am certain we can learn the secret" (something to that effect)

QUOTE
so theoretically Anakin shouldn't be standing with Obi-Wan and Yoda at the end)


Since he's standing there with them, and they look at him and smile- it's fairly easy to conclude (to me, at least) that Obi-Wan and Yoda helped him achieve "force-ghostness".

QUOTE
Yet we're supposed to believe that no one but Qui-Gon, who admits himself that Obi-Wan is 'wiser than I am', has discovered this 'secret' until now


I don't know, to me, it seems that you are going way out of your way to state things that seem a little, out of the way. Yes, since Qui-Gon becomes one with the force, we are expected to believe he did it. Time is irrelevant. The will of the force is what is relevant. The words "will" and "destiny" are peppered throughout the saga for a reason. If it's the will of the force that you become one with the force, then that's what happens. If it's the will of the force that you don't- then you don't. That's pretty much the end of the story.

"I don't believe Qui-Gon could be the first to become one with the force in X amount of time" is like saying "I don't believe that Newton could be the first to postulate mathematical gravity-theory in X time."

But he was.
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#10 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 03:32 PM

QUOTE (Dunedain @ May 31 2005, 07:50 PM)
"I don't believe Qui-Gon could be the first to become one with the force in X amount of time" is like saying "I don't believe that Newton could be the first to postulate mathematical gravity-theory in X time."

But he was.

Newton was a genius; Qui-Gon most emphatically is not. And Newton had thousands of years of other people's work to build on - in Qui-Gon's case we're supposed to believe that he just 'happened' to become one with the Force when no one ever had before? It had never been the 'will' of the Force for this to happen to any previous Jedi over the past 25,000 years? Give me a fucking break. You can accept this crap if you want to; I will not.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#11 User is offline   snaithbert Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 03:34 PM

dunedain, your points, like all points that try to explain the less than stellar part of the new trilogy are accurate but unsatisfying.

Yeah all that stuff you said COULD be the correct explanation to all the problems of the movies. The problem is that while everything you said could be technically correct- it still doesn't sit well with me. It's not logical and it feels like you're trying to force a square peg into a round hole, etc.

Why not just accept the fact that Lucas dropped the ball? Coming up with all these explanations doesn't change the fact that if Lucas had done the job right- we wouldn't NEED the explanations in the first place.

For my money, all of modhatter's points were quite valid. Especially the one about how Lucas seems to have totally ignored the original trilogy when making the new one. He himself set up the rules 20 years ago, but he couldn't be bothered to re-examine them when he began making his new trilogy. My feeling is that he figured no one would care- but he was wrong. Yes there are people out there who DON'T care, who will take a cool space battle over a logical storyline every day of the week. But some folks would prefer that Lucas actually put the time in and followed the guidelines that he himself established. You can come up with all the excuses in the world to explain away Lucas' lazy storytelling, but in the end you can't change the fact that Lucas just didn't care enough to put the time in and carefully re-examine the world he created. As a result, the PT is full of inconsistancies, most of which can't simply be explained away.
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#12 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 03:41 PM

i dont get you bashers, you say, "hey, explain to me why this happened that way." and then someone explains and you say, "i dont want any explanations."

im not sitting in a corner here trying my darndest to give bashers a headache. im writing out replies as fast i can read the topics. the answers are there; granted you do sometimes have to LOOK for the answer, but whats so wrong with that?
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#13 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 03:59 PM

QUOTE (xenduck @ May 31 2005, 09:41 PM)
i dont get you bashers, you say, "hey, explain to me why this happened that way." and then someone explains and you say, "i dont want any explanations."

im not sitting in a corner here trying my darndest to give bashers a headache. im writing out replies as fast i can read the topics. the answers are there; granted you do sometimes have to LOOK for the answer, but whats so wrong with that?

Because they're not good explanations; they're just feeble attempts to rationalise something that clearly doesn't make sense. When you have to twist yourselves into ridiculous knots to come up with an explanation, and you're all giving a different answer anyway, it's obvious that the films are not doing a good job of telling a coherent, plausible story.

Oh, and on the Yoda issue: Obi-Wan doesn't say 'Yoda trained me'; he says 'Yoda was the Jedi Master who trained me'. Not 'a Jedi Master' or 'one of the Jedi Masters', but THE Jedi Master. This very, very clearly implies that it was Yoda who undertook all, or at least the main part, of Obi-Wan's training. I don't care how hard you try to convince me otherwise; I'm simply not having it.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#14 User is offline   snaithbert Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 04:04 PM

Well said, Helena.

Also I can only speak for myself here, but... who actually asked for explanations?

All we said was "this stuff sucks" not "someone EXPLAIN why it sucks." Because to be honest, most of us already know why- because Lucas can't write.

In any case I'm not against looking for answers, especially because the answers always seem to be just as unsatisfying as the questions.

The answers are weak and unconvincing and only serve to apologize for Lucas' weak storytelling.

They don't ring true, they don't explain things to me in a logical sense.

All the explanations I've ever heard for the many many story flaws in the PT are less intended to genuinely explain the story and more intended to just silence those who dare to speak out against it.

Face it, folks: the PT was poorly written, with gaping plot holes and many contradictions. Just because George Lucas wrote it, doesn't mean it's good.

And in the final analysis, if George had been a better writer- we wouldn't have any questions at all.
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#15 User is offline   modhatter Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 04:09 PM

Okay, let's hypothetically agrue that Yoda hasn't been training Jedi for 800 years, but has been training younglings to BE Jedi (which I don't buy for a second). When Ben asks if he was any different when Yoda trained him, it is in response to Luke having so much anger in him, like Anakin. Are we to believe that a youngling had Sith-level anger in him?

Let's look at this passage from RotJ:
"When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong...."

For one thing,according to Ep1, Anakin was a good pod racer in one race (he'd never finished ONE before), and he was actually a terrible pilot who got extremely lucky. But more to the point, when Obi-Wan is Qui-Gon's apprentice, he has not even gone through the trials. He is, in short, not being instructed by Yoda. Yoda even comments that Obi-Wan taking the trials at that point would be EARLY. And, later, when Qui-Gon is dead, Obi-Wan takes Anakin on as a Padawan. That is the relationship Qui-Gon had to Obi-Wan. Which is a blatant contradiction to the original trilogy, no argument about it.

Yes, in THEORY, Lucas is familiar with the world he created. however, he also had his product influenced by people like Leigh Brackett and Lawrence Kasdan. And even the improvs of actors like Harrison Ford became part of the Star Wars universe, taking on life and becoming part of the continuity. Regardless of who came up with what, ChefElf has a whole long list of things George Lucas didn't get right, including a large number of contradictory events in the prequel series. Even down to the Obi-Wan/Ben question...

Ep4:
"BEN: Well of course, of course I know him. He's me! I haven't gone by
the name Obi-Wan since oh, before you were born.
"

Ep3:
[After Padme gives birth] "PADME: Obi-Wan . . . there . . . is good in him. I know there is ... still . . ."

For that matter... are we really supposed to think that Anakin wanted Luke to have the saber Obi-Wan gives him in Ep4? I'm sure George Lucas has an excuse for that too, but the fact is, because of his consistently bad approach to the prequel trilogy, and even some writing flaws of the original trilogy, it sets off major alarm bells.

If I'm not getting the gist of a bad story, then hooray for me. I refuse to be a fanboy and accept the pabulum Lucas feeds me because it's Lucas. Bad writing is bad writing, no matter who perpetrates it.

As you answered another point, yes, Leia's mother died when Leia was very young. But not at infancy!!! Infants don't evenYet develop three-dimensional eyesight til about four months. Yet Leia is able to remember that her real mother was "very beautiful. Kind, but...sad." So, if we take a HUGE leap and say that Leia can remember these things, we must also accept that her twin can too. Yet Luke says, "I have no memory of my mother. I never knew her." Maybe destroying the continuity enables Lucas to tell what he feels is a better story, but any sort of saga or soap opera dies when the continuity is destroyed. Ever hear about the Bobby Ewing "dream" on Dallas? The series limped along for several seasons thereafter, but it lost a TON of viewers and worse, lost its reputation for being a quality serial drama and became forever after regarded largely as a campy soap.

And that's what Lucas has done again and again. Just like C3PO, he thinks he can have our minds wiped and it will suddenly be all better. But some of us are more like R2D2, whose mind for some reason hasn't been wiped. And that creates a big big problem.
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