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Just saw Episode III I'm vexed... terribly vexed

#16 User is offline   Veer Icon

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Posted 30 May 2005 - 05:52 PM

QUOTE (Dunedain @ May 30 2005, 01:37 PM)
Yeah, it needed him. Qui-Gon was establishing that the Jedi were becoming too detatched from the will of the force. He was the "rebel" of the Jedi. The one guy who was, for all intents and purposes, the last true Jedi. Because of his connection to the "living force", he was able to transcend death, which allowed Obi-Wan and Yoda to do the same. In the over-all arc of the story, Qui-Gon is necessary.


To be fair, unless someone knows the back-story, cut pieces or has read the ROTS novel, Qui-gon is quite a nothing character.
I didn't even know that it was Qui-gon who shouted 'noooo' during Anakins tusken massacre, and I doubt very many others do either. Nor would I have understood the Qui-gon reference in ROTS if I it hadn't been explained to me by a star-wars geek who read the script before the cuts. Didn't see much rebellion in him, no did I see the Jedi as being detached from the force in anyway either.
I suspect that for most Qui-qon was just Obi-wans master who discovers Anakin, and a nice all round guy, who dies in Ep I, and that's it.
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#17 User is offline   GreviousMAKESmeSAD Icon

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Posted 30 May 2005 - 06:54 PM

The entirety of episode 1 was useless. Nevermind qui gon
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#18 User is offline   Dartholomew Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 02:29 PM

QUOTE (Veer @ May 30 2005, 03:52 PM)
To be fair, unless someone knows the back-story, cut pieces or has read the ROTS novel, Qui-gon is quite a nothing character.
I didn't even know that it was Qui-gon who shouted 'noooo' during Anakins tusken massacre, and I doubt very many others do either. Nor would I have understood the Qui-gon reference in ROTS if I it hadn't been explained to me by a star-wars geek who read the script before the cuts.  Didn't see much rebellion in him, no did I see the Jedi as being detached from the force in anyway either.
I suspect that for most Qui-qon was just Obi-wans master who discovers Anakin, and a nice all round guy, who dies in Ep I, and that's it.

This is my point. I never saw that Qui-Gon was the "true Jedi." If he was meant to be, then they should have first presented that there was a problem with the Jedi Order before introducing him. Then it would probably make more sense, but nonetheless, what Lucas did was alter his original story as told in the OT regarding who taught Obi-Wan. Bottom line, he was an UNNECESSARY character. Kenobi could have been the original master for Anakin and the story would have been intact if not show more cohesion to the OT.
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#19 User is offline   julie123 Icon

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 01:21 PM

QUOTE (Dunedain @ May 30 2005, 08:37 PM)
Not really. The prophecy didn't say that the chosen one would bring balance to the Jedi and the Sith. Just "to the force". The Jedi read it as that the chosen one would destroy the Sith, who caused an imbalance in the force. It seems they were right, because Anakin did destroy the Sith.
The force never really changed. It is the same through the sextet. The only thing midichlorians do is allow the will of the force to be known. They don't "make the force" and the Jedi don't use midichlorians to "use the force"- they just speak the will of the force.
Yeah, it needed him. Qui-Gon was establishing that the Jedi were becoming too detatched from the will of the force. He was the "rebel" of the Jedi. The one guy who was, for all intents and purposes, the last true Jedi. Because of his connection to the "living force", he was able to transcend death, which allowed Obi-Wan and Yoda to do the same. In the over-all arc of the story, Qui-Gon is necessary.



Well if you allow the fact that a balance means two sides being equal etc, then you will see that Anakin may have destroyed the Sith but he didn't bring a balance to the force, because at the end of ROTJ, no one is with the dark side.

Also, I think everyone is overlooking one essential factor here. Anakin is the Chosen One, who will bring a balance to the force. Why then, when Mace is beating Palpatine in that silly duel, didn't Anakin fulfil the prophecy and kill Palpatine, thus bringing about a balance to the force? Where was it written, that him turning to the dark side and killing billions of aliens/humans etc, was the only way to fulfil his destiny? Shouldn't a child of prophecy take the first and more logical opportunity to fulfil said prophecy?

The only reason Anakin did not kill Palapatine because a) it was in the script, and cool.gif because of Lucas's "interesting" story telling.

Why aren’t you all screaming about this f*****g miss-step?

wub.gif wub.gif wub.gif
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#20 User is offline   Storm Shadow Icon

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 02:21 PM

no, Anakin served his purpose in the end.

I like my friends hypothesis; Plagueis created Anakin, Palpatine killed Plagueis and kept an eye on Anakin from birth but still kept the Sith order alive during this period. Anakins destiny from day one was to destroy the Jedi from within and bring darkness to the galaxy, but the Sith created the false prophecy of "one who will bring balance to the Force" to fool the Jedi (hence Yoda's "a prophecy that misread could have been" statement in ROTS).

What Palpatine DIDNT anticipate was Anakin being able to feel compassion and love for someone other than himself (his mom, Padme, Luke); he was supposed to be a creation of the dark side, but the Force has a will of its own. Funny how Palpatine could see everything beforehand, but was unable to prevent himself from being destroyed by his own creation. The irony of the story is that Anakins intended purpose was to indeed bring balance to the dark side of the Force, but Palpatine's plan backfires on him and HE is the one who ultimately destroys the Sith order.
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#21 User is offline   SithAvenger Icon

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 05:52 PM

QUOTE (Dartholomew @ May 27 2005, 12:52 AM)
1. The lightsaber was melted in the LAVA!!!
2. Anakin didn't know about Luke
2a. Why did they hide Luke in Tatooine with the Lars' when Anakin knows about them and they didn't even change his last name!!!
2b.  Owen and Beru don't remember threepio????  He was there helping them out in AOTC.
3. it didn't even look like the same lightsaber in ANH than the one in ROTS.


1.- Obi-Wan took Anakin's lightsaber before leaving.
2.- Vader thought his children died along with Padme until Episode V.
2b.- They don't remember him because when threepio left them he was silver and there are a lot of protocol droids
3.-To me it did.

I know why Vader wouldn´t return to Tatooine to search for Luke...
He doesn't like sand...
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#22 User is offline   Trigormike Icon

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Posted 10 June 2005 - 08:09 AM

Maybe this will all be explained in the Prequel's Prequels
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#23 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 10 June 2005 - 09:19 AM

Wouldn't it have been better--and make so much more sense if because Jedi make attachments, that the death of any loved one would cause a "Force Backlash" if you will... it like "imprints" the traumatic death of a loved on a certain area, and the Jedi/Sith who suffers the most from the Force Backlash can't even get near it without severe psychological trauma.

So, here's how it works...

Shmi dies.
Vader freaks out and kills the sandpeople.
It's leaves an "imprint" on Tatooine.
Other Jedi can sense this imprint when they get near the area, but if Vader/Anakin gets close, it "hurts" him.

Thus Mace's comment from TPM would make sense, "... a vergence [in the Force] is around a person..." So, it implies that it could be around something non-human. This could explain the cave on Dagobah. Something terrible happened there... leaving an imprint... residue.

(but, of course, you'd have to forget about midichlorians for this to work). biggrin.gif
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#24 User is offline   Rick McCallum Icon

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Posted 10 June 2005 - 09:22 AM

prequel's prequels? already leaking? i gotta sue someone
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#25 User is offline   julie123 Icon

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Posted 10 June 2005 - 02:23 PM

QUOTE (Storm Shadow @ Jun 9 2005, 07:21 PM)
no, Anakin served his purpose in the end.

I like my friends hypothesis; Plagueis created Anakin, Palpatine killed Plagueis and kept an eye on Anakin from birth but still kept the Sith order alive during this period. Anakins destiny from day one was to destroy the Jedi from within and bring darkness to the galaxy, but the Sith created the false prophecy of "one who will bring balance to the Force" to fool the Jedi (hence Yoda's "a prophecy that misread could have been" statement in ROTS).

What Palpatine DIDNT anticipate was Anakin being able to feel compassion and love for someone other than himself (his mom, Padme, Luke); he was supposed to be a creation of the dark side, but the Force has a will of its own. Funny how Palpatine could see everything beforehand, but was unable to prevent himself from being destroyed by his own creation. The irony of the story is that Anakins intended purpose was to indeed bring balance to the dark side of the Force, but Palpatine's plan backfires on him and HE is the one who ultimately destroys the Sith order.



"Anakin's intended purpose was to indeed bring balance to the dark side of the force". Doesn't make sense. Shouldn't this read Anakin's intended purpose was to swing the balance of the force from the light side to the dark side?

This aside, I have to say your support of your friend's hypothesis is dodgy because you are using the expanded universe to support his/your theory, when I was drawing attention to what happened in the FILM!

In addition, Lucas has stated for many years that the expanded universe is not canon, it is their solely for the fans entertainment, and is not part of his vision. The only medium he considers canon are the films. He says this because quite a few of the Star War novels are undermined by the films, one such book being the novelisation of ROTJ. In the book, Obi-Wan is Owen Lars half-brother, but in Attack of the Clones, Anakin is Owen's stepbrother.

Therefore, if you allow Lucas to have his "vision" and consider (like Lucas) Revenge of the Sith to be canon, you will see that Plagueis was not Anakin's creator, it is the force, and nothing to do with a Sith or a Jedi. Thus, I say again, it makes no SENSE that a supposed child of prophecy, would not kill his supposed enemy and fulfil his destiny, at the first and more logical opportunity.
innocent.gif huh.gif huh.gif
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#26 User is offline   Lord Melkor Icon

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Posted 10 June 2005 - 02:39 PM

Julie 123, it is all your interpretation of prophecy, those things are cryptic on purpose.
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#27 User is offline   julie123 Icon

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Posted 11 June 2005 - 06:44 AM

QUOTE (Lord Melkor @ Jun 10 2005, 07:39 PM)
Julie 123, it is all your interpretation of prophecy, those things are cryptic on purpose.



I'll accept that, but it drives me devil.gif when the expanded universe is usued to make sense of what is happening in ROTS. The film should stand or fall on it's own.
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#28 User is offline   julie123 Icon

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Posted 11 June 2005 - 06:59 AM

QUOTE (julie123 @ Jun 11 2005, 11:44 AM)
I'll accept that, but it drives me  devil.gif when the expanded universe is usued to make sense of what is happening in ROTS.  The film should stand or fall on it's own.



Okay I'm replying to myself here, however, NO!!! The way Star Wars trilogy's one and two have been set up is that there is no other way for Anakin to fulfil his destiny other than turning to the dark side and killing all those lovely cuddly aliens etc. You know, you cannot negate a prophecy thing - sign the god damn hero up for redemption now.

But this is wrong, damn wrong. I say again, Anakin could have fulfulled his destiny by slaughtering Palpatine in ROTS, and that evil Emperor wouldn't have ....

If Lucas are going to tell a story in the wrong order then he should at least make it logical.
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#29 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 11 June 2005 - 08:45 AM

Well if you allow the fact that a balance means two sides being equal etc, then you will see that Anakin may have destroyed the Sith but he didn't bring a balance to the force, because at the end of ROTJ, no one is with the dark side.

I'm not trying to defend the whole "balance" thing. I really do think it's a stupid concept that was never thought out, but one poster in another forum said something to the effect of, you can't think of "balance" as equal light and equal dark, but rather it's like the human body. You can't be "balanced" by being equal sick and equal healthy.

So it should be more like on the lines of "harmony" or some such....

I guess being strong in the Force has something to do with the food pyramid and getting lots of rest and exercise. rolleyes.gif
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#30 User is offline   snaithbert Icon

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Posted 11 June 2005 - 11:05 AM

I still don't understand why the force NEEDS to be balanced.

Clearly it had been UNbalanced for thousands of years and the galaxy got along just fine.

So what's the point of balancing it?

Besides Lucas' lame attempt to string together three movies, I mean.
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