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Just saw Episode III I'm vexed... terribly vexed

#1 User is offline   Lord Aquaman Icon

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Posted 26 May 2005 - 10:52 PM

Episode III was a truly odd experience for me. It can't hold a candle to the original Star Wars trilogy, yet it is a vast improvement over the first two prequels. Some parts of Episode III are very good if not great, while other parts are still marred by the tackiness that makes us hate the other two prequels. As usual there was too much CGI - it actually looked like the Star Fox games I played on Super Nintendo and N64 - and the problem with CGI is that it just doesn't have the solidity or depth of detail that models have, so as a result CGI spaceships aren't as real looking.

Ewan McGregor soldiered on as best he could as Obi-Wan Kenobi and was fairly likable, managing some enthusiasm and emotional intensity, though he sounded kind of like C-3P0 in the opening during the space battle. I always thought Obi-Wan would have been more the type to ride shotgun in a fighter ship as opposed to actually flying one. I couldn't help wondering why he was left out of the final frame just before the credits rolled while Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen looked off into the twin sunset (maybe it was their revenge for getting Kentucky fried in A New Hope).

Samuel L. Jackson once again had stiltled dialogue, but for me he had enough composure and dignity to let it slip by. His death was sort of over the top - he practically won the duel with Ian McDiarmid, used his shiny purple lightsaber to reflect McDiarmid's Force lightning back at him, thus making the frog faced fiend we meet in ROTJ, and then Sam gets his hand cut off by Hayden Christensen and he gets fried before being sent falling way way out of frame. That could have used some toning down.

Hayden Christensen fought and struggled and dug as deep as he could to make Anakin seem conflicted and menacing, but he couldn't quite pull it off (though I think he did try to tone down his whine factor for some shots). And he looked ridiculous in the end in the Darth Vader costume - Vader should not look that small! HC's just not physically imposing, sad but true. Where's David Prowse when you need him? For that matter, where's Kane Hodder, Ken Kirzinger and/or Daniel Cudmore?

Natalie Portman didn't really have much to do except be the lady in waiting, give birth and then die very quickly from grief. You'd think the mother of Luke & Leia would have hung in there a little longer... and what was up with the "You're breaking my heart!" line? Stress and shock can do a lot to your thought process and vocabulary, but that line was just unpleasant to listen to.

Ian McDiarmid had his moments, but he's still not my Emperor. Clive Revill will always be the Emperor to me.

The Jedi got killed a little too easily by the Clone Troopers. Even if they were caught off guard, you'd think all those Force powered Jedi would hold out longer against a bunch of clones with blasters. The cutting together of their deaths was edited competently enough, but they still should have done better.

Again with the anorexic Daffy Duck robots! ARGH! And if General Grievous was supposed to be the pre-Vader, it might have made more sense to have introduced a better version of him earlier on.

Yoda saying "Not if anything to say about I have" was a little... I don't know how to describe that. If Yoda was a friend of the wookies and Chewbacca, why does Chewbacca diss old Ben Kenobi in ANH?

The clash between Anakin & Obi-Wan on the lava planet reminded me of the Mt. Doom sequence from Lord of the Rings: Return of the King, so much in fact I almost expected to see Gollum in there stroking a lightsaber and calling it his precious. It also reminded me of the climax of Star Trek 3: The Search for Spock when Captain Kirk is fighting the Klingon commander Kruge on the deteriorating Genesis planet; again, I felt like Anakin should have been hanging from a cliff, grabbed Obi-Wan's foot and tried to drag him down, only to have Obi-Wan kick him repeatedly and shout "I... have HAD... enough of... YOU!" I guess it was supposed to be a Dante's Inferno-battling before the gates of Hell/pit of the Underworld sort of thing.

It was a pretty decent duel, but it felt weird for Obi-Wan to just let Anakin burn, even if he was a murderous sociopath who had no busy learning the ways of the Force. I know we need to let him live so we can have our beloved Vader in the original films, but for Obi-Wan to just leave Anakin there melting and suffering seemed a bit... unnatural. A better way to do it would have been for Obi-Wan to knock Anakin off the cliff and have him think Anakin fell to his death without seeing the bastard's charred remains pulling itself out of the lava.

So it wasn't a horrible experience to sit through, but I'm not sure if I liked it or not. I'm in a great state of ambivalence regarding this film, and I may never decide if I like it or hate it. I'll never be able to embrace the prequels, but part of me wants to forgive this film's failings. Maybe I'm being seduced by the Dark Side of the Force...

Now all that's left to do is see if George Lucas lives up to his promise to go back to directing low budget indie flicks, which I doubt he will (though hopefully it would throw a wrench into the talks of an Indiana Jones 4 - I say unto you, NO INDY 4!)

This post has been edited by Lord Aquaman: 26 May 2005 - 10:56 PM

I am the Fisher King.

I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an obi-wan to go.
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#2 User is offline   Michel Orla Icon

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Posted 26 May 2005 - 11:04 PM

You're right about the CGI ships. They look fake and no amout of digital animation can change that

And Im thinking more and more the same you are about Obi Wan just leaving Anakin there. It doesn't seem right. You're way of doing it is much better
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#3 User is offline   Dartholomew Icon

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Posted 26 May 2005 - 11:52 PM

Another thing I had a problem with(and I have a few quams regarding this movie)was in ANH, Kenobi tells Luke that his father "wanted [him] to have [the lightsaber] but [his] uncle wouldn't allow it." A few problems regarding this situation.
1. The lightsaber was melted in the LAVA!!!
2. Anakin didn't know about Luke
2a. Why did they hide Luke in Tatooine with the Lars' when Anakin knows about them and they didn't even change his last name!!!
2b. Owen and Beru don't remember threepio???? He was there helping them out in AOTC.
3. it didn't even look like the same lightsaber in ANH than the one in ROTS.

The more I think about it the more I hate it!!!AAAAGGGGHHHHH!!!!

Btw I thought that McDiarmid played the emperor in ROTJ???
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#4 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 12:54 AM

He did, just not in Empire.

The lightsaber thing does grate, but it was good that Obi-Wan took it, it shows that George did have a few thoughts about it.
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#5 User is offline   Failureboy2 Icon

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 05:06 AM

I maintain that the way Obiwan maimed Anakin and left him there is good. The scene is startlingly violent and brutal - another accidental stroke of genius by Lucas.

Though I admit this might have to do with my feelings for Hayden. I want to punch that kid in the neck.
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#6 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 05:38 AM

Yes... I did like that scene, partly for the good pathos it showed, partly because it was surprisingly well done, and partly because the man who brought us "I don't like sand" got immolated.
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#7 User is offline   batalheiro Icon

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 06:26 AM

QUOTE
1. The lightsaber was melted in the LAVA!!!
2. Anakin didn't know about Luke
2a. Why did they hide Luke in Tatooine with the Lars' when Anakin knows about them and they didn't even change his last name!!!
2b. Owen and Beru don't remember threepio???? He was there helping them out in AOTC.
3. it didn't even look like the same lightsaber in ANH than the one in ROTS.


1. Obi-Wan picks up Anakinīs light saber when he leaves.
2. I think sending Luke to his family was the best way to hide him. He was sent to his family so its naturall his name is "skywalker" we dont know how many skywalker exist in tatooine...
2b. protocol droids all look the same.
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#8 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 06:28 AM

Yeah but threepio's name is threepio and thats unique...
remember "I am See..." (anakin interrupts) "Threepio?"

It was kind of weird how Anakin took threepio in clones... It was like - my masters in trouble, so I'll stop descending into darkness and take your droid with me as I go and try help him.
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#9 User is offline   Dunedain Icon

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 11:56 AM

I felt the same way when I first saw e3. I didn't have any real problem with the prequels. I see some people did, but I didn't. They were good, but really sub-par. Not even close to 4-6, for sure. But, I enjoyed them. To me, 1 was about Qui-Gon. 2 was about Obi-Wan. 3 finally got me into the rest of the characters, even if I was still centered on Obi-Wan.

I thought the CGI looked somewhat odd the first time around. The second time around I thought it was great. I didn't know what to think the first time I saw e3- but after I saw it the 2nd time, I ranked it equal to 4-6. It would be better than 6, if it weren't for the fact that 6 had all of the weight of the 4-5 story-line behind it, waiting to be resolved.

What surprised me most was that I actually liked Anakin's storyline this time. In e2 I kept saying "Go back to Obi-Wan" everytime they'd show Anakin. But I actually liked him in e3. And Obi-Wan just rocked.
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#10 User is offline   Dartholomew Icon

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 01:35 PM

QUOTE (batalheiro @ May 27 2005, 04:26 AM)
1. Obi-Wan picks up Anakinīs light saber when he leaves.
2. I think sending Luke to his family was the best way to hide him. He was sent to his family so its naturall his name is "skywalker" we dont know how many skywalker exist in tatooine...
2b. protocol droids all look the same.


1. Sorry, I must've missed Obi-Wan picking up the lightsaber I got to check that out again. But it wasn't Anakin that wanted Luke to have it like Obi-Wan says in ANH.
2. Yeah but a Skywalker living with Anakins stepbrother that is just too much of a coincidence. Yoda and Obi-wan should've tried better to conceal his identity, Leia changed her name to her new family(Organa) why didn't they make him Luke Lars then???
2b. True but this was C3P0, the one Anakin created.
I dunno, Maybe I am too nitpicky regarding story gaps. I know that it's just little details and the Main Story stays pretty much intact but the small character flaws and details it can be annoying when they don't match up.
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#11 User is offline   snaithbert Icon

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 01:40 PM

QUOTE (Dartholomew @ May 26 2005, 11:52 PM)
1. The lightsaber was melted in the LAVA!!!
2. Anakin didn't know about Luke
2a. Why did they hide Luke in Tatooine with the Lars' when Anakin knows about them and they didn't even change his last name!!!
2b.  Owen and Beru don't remember threepio????  He was there helping them out in AOTC.
3. it didn't even look like the same lightsaber in ANH than the one in ROTS.


All good points, which I think most real fans are wondering as well.

What's truly dissapointing is that by addressing such points, Lucas could have created a much better, much more interesting trilogy. If he'd simply used the OT as a guide for what he could and could not do with the PT, it would have all fit together much more smoothly and been a lot more fun to watch.

But instead he did whatever he wanted and then forced things to fit, or just disregarded them altogether. The result is a lot of glaring contradictions and errors and two trilogies that don't seem to have anything to do with each other, beyond having some of the same characters in them.

Believe you me, I wouldn't have minded Lucas breaking the rules- if was a good storyteller who could make the story so good that we'd be willing to throw the rulebook out the window. But he's a BAD storyteller and so not only did we get all kinds of crazy contradictions, we also got a terrible story to go along with them. Basically the worst of both worlds.

But of course the most frustrating thing about the PT is that the OT basically set up the entire story and if you follow the story, it's not all that hard to create the stories that came before, etc. But Lucas couldn't even follow the stories HE created, so the new stories are totally unrelated to the old ones, except in the vaguest, most unrealistic and forced ways. Lucas chose to focus on stupid things like Yoda and Chewbacca palling around and the childhood of Boba Fett than than to seriously examine the threads that were genuinely laid out in the OT. All he had to do was watch his own movies to know how to make the new ones. I have to wonder if he bothered doing that, or if he just thought "hey, I'm George Lucas, ANY star wars movie I make will be great."

Sadly in the case of the PT- he was very much mistaken.
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#12 User is offline   Dartholomew Icon

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 05:04 PM

QUOTE (snaithbert @ May 27 2005, 11:40 AM)
All good points, which I think most real fans are wondering as well.

What's truly dissapointing is that  by addressing such points, Lucas could have created a much better, much more interesting trilogy. If he'd simply used the OT as a guide for what he could and could not do with the PT, it would have all fit together much more smoothly and been a lot more fun to watch.

But instead he did whatever he wanted and then forced things to fit, or just disregarded them altogether. The result is a lot of glaring contradictions and errors and two trilogies that don't seem to have anything to do with each other, beyond having some of the same characters in them.

Believe you me, I wouldn't have minded Lucas breaking the rules- if was a good storyteller who could make the story so good that we'd be willing to throw the rulebook out the window. But he's a BAD storyteller and so not only did we get all kinds of crazy contradictions, we also got a terrible story to go along with them.  Basically the worst of both worlds.

But of course the most frustrating thing about the PT is that the OT basically set up the entire story and if you follow the story, it's not all that hard to create the stories that came before, etc. But Lucas couldn't even follow the stories HE created, so the new stories are totally unrelated to the old ones, except in the vaguest, most unrealistic and forced ways. Lucas chose to focus on stupid things like Yoda and Chewbacca palling around and the childhood of Boba Fett than than to seriously examine the threads that were genuinely laid out in the OT. All he had to do was watch his own movies to know how to make the new ones. I have to wonder if he bothered doing that, or if he just thought "hey, I'm George Lucas, ANY star wars movie I make will be great."

Sadly in the case of the PT- he was very much mistaken.

I thouroughly agree but I won't go as far as saying that the two trilogies have nothing in common. It kind of does tie in together but just in a VERY weak way. He should have just omitted the extra nonsense like the Matrix like "prophecy of the one who would bring balance." That's stupid because the force at the time was out of balance with the Good side severely outweighing the Dark side. Also the whole midichlorian $#!T, WTF???? The force was somuch more believable as ran untangible "force" rather than having Mr. Wizard give us a "logical" explanation on how Jedi have powers wacko.gif . Also I think Qui-Gon Jinn was a wasted character. Really did SW need him. In the OT Kenobi was the one who "took it upon [himself]" to train Anakin/Vader. Why did George Mucus have to introduce a brand new character that really made little impact on the plot. AHAHHHAHAHAHH I can't believe he wasted this trilogy on useless futile nonsensical storylines and characters. Case in point......Friggin JAR JAR BINKS!!!!! angry.gif
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#13 User is offline   Luke Skywanker Icon

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Posted 29 May 2005 - 12:28 PM

Some bits were a little too fast for my poor old eyes.
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#14 User is offline   GreviousMAKESmeSAD Icon

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Posted 29 May 2005 - 02:33 PM

Heres the way I would have imagined the end of the Kenobi-Anakin Duel.
EXT. Mustafar
The two move on to a precarious bridge. It can come down at any moment. The World shakes.
Kenobi - You were my brother.
Anakin - Not anymore.
Anakin lunges at Kenobi who flips over the saber, slashing on the way, causing Anakin heavy wounds. Anakin can't retain his balance and falls. Obi Wan, in a last second sympathy, uses the force. Inches above the lava, Anakin is halted in his plummet. He begins to burn. Obi Wan waves his arm, and gently places Anakin to a safe bank. As Obi Wan goes to take care of his old friend, An army of troops, led by Palpatine, fly in. There's nothing more he can do. Obi Wan flees for his life. Palpatine approaches Anakin's smoldering body.
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#15 User is offline   Dunedain Icon

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Posted 30 May 2005 - 03:37 PM

QUOTE (Dartholomew @ May 27 2005, 06:04 PM)
I thouroughly agree but I won't go as far as saying that the two trilogies have nothing in common.  It kind of does tie in together but just in a VERY weak way.  He should have just omitted the extra nonsense like the Matrix like "prophecy of the one who would bring balance."  That's stupid because the force at the time was out of balance with the Good side severely outweighing the Dark side.


Not really. The prophecy didn't say that the chosen one would bring balance to the Jedi and the Sith. Just "to the force". The Jedi read it as that the chosen one would destroy the Sith, who caused an imbalance in the force. It seems they were right, because Anakin did destroy the Sith.

QUOTE
Also the whole midichlorian $#!T, WTF????  The force was somuch more believable as ran untangible "force" rather than having Mr. Wizard give us a "logical" explanation on how Jedi have powers.


The force never really changed. It is the same through the sextet. The only thing midichlorians do is allow the will of the force to be known. They don't "make the force" and the Jedi don't use midichlorians to "use the force"- they just speak the will of the force.

QUOTE
Also I think Qui-Gon Jinn was a wasted character.  Really did SW need him.


Yeah, it needed him. Qui-Gon was establishing that the Jedi were becoming too detatched from the will of the force. He was the "rebel" of the Jedi. The one guy who was, for all intents and purposes, the last true Jedi. Because of his connection to the "living force", he was able to transcend death, which allowed Obi-Wan and Yoda to do the same. In the over-all arc of the story, Qui-Gon is necessary.
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