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Episode III makes Darth Vader a wuss Vader used to be Uber

#1 User is offline   Obi-Ken Barbi Icon

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Posted 26 May 2005 - 09:14 PM

After watching the original trilogy, I could imagine Vader busy in the Clone Wars and after, actively leading assault teams to search for and destroy rebellious Jedi and their allies.

He actually absorbed a blaster bolt with his bare hand. How uber is that?!?

However, after seeing Episode III, I am forced to conclude that Vader is really just a whiney wussbag, incapable of defeating real jedi, since he never defeated any worthy opponent singlehandedly.

Episode II - Dooku singlehandedly fights off and/or defeats Obi-wan, Aniken, and Yoda.

Episode III - Dooku is defeated by Aniken and Obi-wan. At first I thought this made young Skywalker very powerful. But Dooku must have spent some "mana" defeating Obi-Wan. And during his fight with Anikiken, the most powerful Dark Side wielder in the galaxy is sitting there doing nothing. Just MAYBE he's helping Aniken out a bit? So Aniken only defeats Dooku with the help of Obi-wan and Darth Sidious.

Aniken kills bunches of small children. Not much of a challenge there.

Obi-wan Kenobi defeats Aniken.

So name one powerful force wielder that Aniken/Darth Vader defeats?

Nada. Not a single one.

Every jedi that I can recall seeing in Episodes I - III is dead or accounted for (Kenobi & Yoda).

Since all the jedi and jedi disciples are dead ('cept for K & Y), who does Darth Vader have to search out and destroy?

This explains Vader's saber arts detoriation in Episode IV (according to an interview with Lucas). His and Obi-wan's skills suck because there have been no saber battles for 30 years.

If Vader had some success killing jedi, it all happened between movies. I & II should have been crammed into one movie and episode III could have been devoted to Darth Vader's missions for Darth Sidious, purging the galaxy of rebel scum (which would also give more than five minutes for the transition to "I should arrest you" to "Yes master, I will kill all the younglings."

This post has been edited by Obi-Ken Barbi: 26 May 2005 - 09:32 PM

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#2 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 26 May 2005 - 09:27 PM

Vader used to rock. I myself pictured, and am currently writing, Darth Vader going solo against Jedi contingents and leaving nothing standing - using his old tricks like energy absorption and choke and telekinesis and new tricks like simply locking an enemies body in place with the force and killing them. In ROTS he isn't quite so lame as he is in Clones which was to be hoped.

Clones: Dooku stands ready to kill Obi-Wan.
Anakin leaps across the room. Dooku says whatever he says and Anakin replies with "well I am a slow learner"... Dooku should say "yes you are" before he disarms him.
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#3 User is offline   floppydisk Icon

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Posted 26 May 2005 - 09:36 PM

Good thread. I think that Vader was a total hard-ass, but he's not someone you can connect with, or even read his emotions. That's a very important fact for a religion that relies on hate and vengance.

Overall, I feel that Anikin before he got roasted had so much more potential than the classic Vader, as exemplified when you see him killing the kiddies, swiftly moving as slicing, no fancy flips and jumps, leaving nothing left, except replace the kiddies with Jedi Knights, and you've got the perfect Vader. Now I'm kind of dissapointed that we never get to see more of this awesome kick-ass version of Vader in the prequiels.
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#4 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 01:03 AM

there's a nice 20 year gap between films too...

why would we want to see any of things he would have done to become so powerful...

and what the hell do red imperial guards do?

was it too much to ask to see them fight?

no... insteaad we get "I'm beautiful because i'm so inlove"
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#5 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 01:11 AM

The Imperial Guard do nothing... Napoleons Imperial Guard went down dramatically at Waterloo - Palpatine's guys get crushed by Yoda and file out of his throne room in Jedi. Also I think those energy pike things they carry probably inspired those purple energy staves the magna droids use. And why always two? If I was an evil Emperor I'd have six - two for the vanguard, two for the rearguard and two to flank me. And I'd give them long rifles with energy bayonets built in, with pistol and shiv sidearms.
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#6 User is offline   ernesttomlinson Icon

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 02:47 AM

From what I've heard and read here Anakin / Vader is a wuss in the prequels not so much because he fights poorly (although he does) but because he's so easily manipulated. How can you take seriously, as a future evil overlord, an overgrown child who switches allegiance at the drop of a hat because Palpatine makes a vague promise to him about Padme? God frickin' damn it, why did Luke have to make Anakin a child? Would it have killed him to make him at least thirty?
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#7 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 04:51 AM

I was thinking mid-twenties. But why o why was he Jake Lloyd.
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#8 User is offline   Dartholomew Icon

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 06:06 PM

QUOTE (Mnesymone @ May 26 2005, 11:11 PM)
The Imperial Guard do nothing... Napoleons Imperial Guard went down dramatically at Waterloo - Palpatine's guys get crushed by Yoda and file out of his throne room in Jedi. Also I think those energy pike things they carry probably inspired those purple energy staves the magna droids use. And why always two? If I was an evil Emperor I'd have six - two for the vanguard, two for the rearguard and two to flank me. And I'd give them long rifles with energy bayonets built in, with pistol and shiv sidearms.

I would've had 6 destroyer droids to protect me and a few Sith Lords. BTW, Why "always two there are?" Why couldn't there have been an army of siths to help Anakin destroy the Jedi. I would imagine that if the Jedi were the guardians of the galaxy with such a strong ally as the force, it would have required equally skilled and powerful enemies to cause their demise. I would understand if Anakin was Uber strong and skilled but we didn't see that in the movie. Instead he kills......younglings, Hey Ani, pick on someone your own SIZE, not maturity level!!They pretty much diminished Vader's Awe and Splendor delivered in the OT.
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#9 User is offline   LiocModnar Icon

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Posted 28 May 2005 - 07:05 AM

QUOTE (ernesttomlinson @ May 27 2005, 02:47 AM)
How can you take seriously, as a future evil overlord, an overgrown child who switches allegiance at the drop of a hat because Palpatine makes a vague promise to him about Padme


Whose to say Palpatine wasn't running the show the entire time and using Vader as his enforcer? The man certainly has a talent for avoiding the messy work. Anakin's always subordinate to somebody throughout the trilogy whether it's Watto, Obi-Wan, or Palpatine. The few times he's allowed independence he acts out like a teenager and when he finally shows some initiative he's nearly dead. What ever happened to overthrowing the emperor and ruling the galaxy himself? Oh wait, Padme's death burnt out that aspiration.
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#10 User is offline   Richard Icon

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Posted 28 May 2005 - 11:12 AM

QUOTE (Obi-Ken Barbi @ May 27 2005, 02:14 AM)
So name one powerful force wielder that Aniken/Darth Vader defeats? 


Yea you're right. I was hoping that episode three would be about Vader anihilating everyone, and showing the Jedi trying to firstly get him to come back from the dark side (maybe), and then later just trying to escape or fend for themselves. This would have shown more directly the power that Vader has. In the original trilogy, he mainly just dispatches his own bum guards for mispronouncing things or arriving to work five minutes late, the only person you see him fight who is even remotely hard is Luke. So it would have been nice to see him actually kick someone's head in as Vader, single-handedly.
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#11 User is offline   Dunedain Icon

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Posted 28 May 2005 - 03:02 PM

QUOTE (Obi-Ken Barbi @ May 26 2005, 10:14 PM)
After watching the original trilogy, I could imagine Vader busy in the Clone Wars and after, actively leading assault teams to search for and destroy rebellious Jedi and their allies. 

He actually absorbed a blaster bolt with his bare hand.  How uber is that?!?

However, after seeing Episode III, I am forced to conclude that Vader is really just a whiney wussbag, incapable of defeating real jedi, since he never defeated any worthy opponent singlehandedly.

Episode II  - Dooku singlehandedly fights off and/or defeats Obi-wan, Aniken, and Yoda.


No way. Totally disagree. First off, you're talking about Anakin in this e2 example. Vader didn't show up in the films until the last half of e3. Sure, you can argue that Anakin IS Vader, and, to an extent, that's true. They're the same biological human. BUT, Vader didn't truly exist until Anakin was "consumed" by him. It wasn't until Sidious gave Anakin the name Vader, that Vader was truly born. Vader didn't whine. Vader didn't say "It's not fair!" Anakin did.

Let's say that you join an elite group of martial artists. When you achieve the final belt color, they give you a new name- Lao'kung. Well, Lao'kung didn't exist at any time before that. Lao'kung has a red sash in Kung'fu. In the past, you didn't have a red sash in Kung'fu- therefore, you were not Lao'kung. Am I right? Sure I am. So, Vader didn't exist until Anakin turned to the dark side. Only then did Vader come into existence. So, citing e1-2 doesn't work because it's not Vader, it's Anakin.

QUOTE
Episode III - Dooku is defeated by Aniken and Obi-wan.  At first I thought this made young Skywalker very powerful.  But Dooku must have spent some "mana" defeating Obi-Wan.  And during his fight with Anikiken, the most powerful Dark Side wielder in the galaxy is sitting there doing nothing.  Just MAYBE he's helping Aniken out a bit?  So Aniken only defeats Dooku with the help of Obi-wan and Darth Sidious.


True- but still Anakin, and not Vader.

QUOTE
Aniken kills bunches of small children.  Not much of a challenge there.

Obi-wan Kenobi defeats Aniken.


Vader kills children. Obi-Wan beats Vader. True. Keep in mind there is also an entire Jedi temple full of Jedi that is also destroyed.

QUOTE
So name one powerful force wielder that Aniken/Darth Vader defeats? 

Nada.  Not a single one.


In the security holograms, it shows Vader taking out Jedi- even two at a time. So, we not only see him killing full-fledged Jedi two at a time in the security holograms, but it's also infered that he killed a bunch of them.

QUOTE
Every jedi that I can recall seeing in Episodes I - III is dead or accounted for (Kenobi & Yoda). 

Since all the jedi and jedi disciples are dead ('cept for K & Y), who does Darth Vader have to search out and destroy?


You're forgetting the reason why Obi-Wan and Yoda returned to the temple in the first place. There was a signal going out calling all Jedi back to Coruscant. There are many Jedi left after e3 ends. These are the ones that Vader hunts down and kills until only 2 are left by the time we get to e4.

QUOTE
If Vader had some success killing jedi, it all happened between movies. I & II should have been crammed into one movie and episode III could have been devoted to Darth Vader's missions for Darth Sidious, purging the galaxy of rebel scum


There's a live-action series in the works. It may suck- but it may be cool. Won't know until I see it. Anyway, this could provide a good set of stories for that work. Maybe focus on some of the no-name Jedi in the series, and have Vader coming after them and cool shit like that.

QUOTE
(which would also give more than five minutes for the transition to "I should arrest you" to "Yes master, I will kill all the younglings."


Anakin gave himself, not to Sidious, but "to your teachings". Sure, he was doing it for Padme. As soon as he did that, he became Vader, and was subdued by the dark-side. He HAD to obey Sidious. Obviously he didn't realize that he would be practically stripped of his free-will which is why Anakin (not Vader) wept. He didn't expect he would have to kill younglings, or slaughter the Separatists. At that point, the conflict between Anakin and Vader was apparent. Tears mean someone in there is not enjoying what is going on.

Once Obi-Wan and Padme are out of the picture, the conflict is subdued. Vader wins. Anakin has nothing left to fight for. Until he finds out he has a son.
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#12 User is offline   Obi-Ken Barbi Icon

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 07:24 AM

QUOTE (Obi-Ken Barbi @ May 26 2005, 09:14 PM)
If Vader had some success killing jedi, it all happened between movies. I & II should have been crammed into one movie and episode III could have been devoted to Darth Vader's missions for Darth Sidious, purging the galaxy of rebel scum (which would also give more than five minutes for the transition to "I should arrest you" to "Yes master, I will kill all the younglings."


I guess Kurt's PVP had similar feelings:
http://www.pvponline...rchive=20050528
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