[Storm Shadow]

My respect for Lucas dropped several notches the second Yoda picked up a lightsabre.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

oh come on! I hate when people say this dumb shit. Yoda is a JEDI MASTER....its the weapon of a Jedi, no matter what your rank you are REQUIRED to have one. Did you really think Yoda was above using a lightsaber at any point in his Jedi career? Or did you think he was a wise old sage for 900 years? Be realistic here. Cut George a lil slack, there's absolutley nothing wrong with Yoda wielding a blade.

[ernesttomlinson]

Aside from the unfortunate fact that he looks completely moronic spinning around like a pinball? Yeah, I suppose you're right, absolutely nothing wrong except for that. And I guess that Yoda must have accidenetally dropped his REQUIRED weapon into a swamp before ESB started.

A friend of mine has a term for the movie fallacy of settling disputes between powerful enemies with conventional fights, the "Guns, Lots of Guns" fallacy. This refers of course to The Matrix where, even though the agents and eventually Neo can manipulate the Matrix in any way they see fit, they instead resort to gun battles and hand-to-hand combat. The true reasons for this are obvious: it's easier to do, doesn't require much thought, and impressive to action-movie fans. As other examples of this my friend cites the battle at the end of Dark City and the utterly ludicrous battle between Saruman and Gandalf in Jackson's adaptation of Fellowship of the Ring. Yoda's Sonic the Hedgehog act is in the same spirit. Everything we've seen in the real Star Wars movies of Yoda's command of the Force is quiet and without flash and fireworks. Why should it not have been the same 25 years earlier?

And where did you get this REQUIRED business? Probably out of some dreadful fan novel - the REQUIREMENT is nowhere to be seen in the movies. "This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight," says Obi-Wan of the lightsabre he gives to Luke, but there's no sense of requirement in those words and, even if there was, "Jedi Knight" and "Jedi Master" are not necessarily the same. Lucas may have decided later that they were but that's just because Lucas has no imagination and probably thought no further or more imaginatively than the Wachowski Brothers did.

[SPQR]

Aside from the unfortunate fact that he looks completely moronic spinning around like a pinball?  Yeah, I suppose you're right, absolutely nothing wrong except for that.  And I guess that Yoda must have accidenetally dropped his REQUIRED weapon into a swamp before ESB started.

A friend of mine has a term for the movie fallacy of settling disputes between powerful enemies with conventional fights, the "Guns, Lots of Guns" fallacy.  This refers of course to The Matrix where, even though the agents and eventually Neo can manipulate the Matrix in any way they see fit, they instead resort to gun battles and hand-to-hand combat.  The true reasons for this are obvious:  it's easier to do, doesn't require much thought, and impressive to action-movie fans.  As other examples of this my friend cites the battle at the end of Dark City and the utterly ludicrous battle between Saruman and Gandalf in Jackson's adaptation of Fellowship of the Ring.  Yoda's Sonic the Hedgehog act is in the same spirit.  Everything we've seen in the real Star Wars movies of Yoda's command of the Force is quiet and without flash and fireworks.  Why should it not have been the same 25 years earlier?

And where did you get this REQUIRED business?  Probably out of some dreadful fan novel - the REQUIREMENT is nowhere to be seen in the movies.  "This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight," says Obi-Wan of the lightsabre he gives to Luke, but there's no sense of requirement in those words and, even if there was, "Jedi Knight" and "Jedi Master" are not necessarily the same.  Lucas may have decided later that they were but that's just because Lucas has no imagination and probably thought no further or more imaginatively than the Wachowski Brothers did.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very, very well said indeed!!!

[Storm Shadow]

oh boy...the "wahhh wahhh he acted this way in the OT so he should be like that in the PT wahhhh wahhh" arguement. see this is your problem....you have your own version of Yoda created in your mind, and Lucas had his. Since the two dont coincide, and since Yoda doesnt act EXACTLY HOW HE DOES IN TESB, then the character is a failure.

OF COURSE you're not gonna see Yoda doing anything flashy in the OT......he's been a fucking outcast living on a deserted planet surrounded by swamps, moldy trees and zero human life for 25 years! And obviously he doesnt have his saber because I dont think any Sith Lords are going to be invading Dagobah anytime soon, you have to assume he figuered he's going to die alone on this planet so he might as well use his time wisely by attuning himself more to the living Force.

And no, I didnt get the "lightsaber is required" fact from a novel. I got it from the movies themselves and common damn sense. Just think, out of the thousands and thousands of years the Jedi have been around protecting the galaxy before the Empire came to be, do you really believe there were Jedi masters who did NOT use a lightsaber at all? I highly highly doubt it. Just because Ben says "Jedi Knight" instead of "Jedi Master" doesnt mean he didnt mean it for them too. Be reasonable, dont be stupid on purpose.

and since you wanna knock Lucas and the Wachowskis for their "lack of imagination" (considering none of us would be in this forum if they had no damn imagination anyways), how would you have portrayed Yoda in the prequels...or hell, Neo in the Matrix? oh and that reminds me; when Neo says "Guns...lots of guns", that was BEFORE he became the One. When he turns, he does exactly what you said he should do; reshape the Matrix as he sees fit.

[SPQR]

oh boy...the "wahhh wahhh he acted this way in the OT so he should be like that in the PT wahhhh wahhh" arguement. see this is your problem....you have your own version of Yoda created in your mind, and Lucas had his. Since the two dont coincide, and since Yoda doesnt act EXACTLY HOW HE DOES IN TESB, then the character is a failure.

OF COURSE you're not gonna see Yoda doing anything flashy in the OT......he's been a fucking outcast living on a deserted planet surrounded by swamps, moldy trees and zero human life for 25 years! And obviously he doesnt have his saber because I dont think any Sith Lords are going to be invading Dagobah anytime soon, you have to assume he figuered he's going to die alone on this planet so he might as well use his time wisely by attuning himself more to the living Force.

And no, I didnt get the "lightsaber is required" fact from a novel. I got it from the movies themselves and common damn sense. Just think, out of the thousands and thousands of years the Jedi have been around protecting the galaxy before the Empire came to be, do you really believe there were Jedi masters who did NOT use a lightsaber at all? I highly highly doubt it. Just because Ben says "Jedi Knight" instead of "Jedi Master" doesnt mean he didnt mean it for them too. Be reasonable, dont be stupid on purpose.

and since you wanna knock Lucas and the Wachowskis for their "lack of imagination" (considering none of us would be in this forum if they had no damn imagination anyways), how would you have portrayed Yoda in the prequels...or hell, Neo in the Matrix? oh and that reminds me; when Neo says "Guns...lots of guns", that was BEFORE he became the One. When he turns, he does exactly what you said he should do; reshape the Matrix as he sees fit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yoda had become a marketing gimmick pure and simple. SW is for children, always has been and always will be, and that's fine. But to change a central character from a zenlike spiritual master into a John Woo action cliché (weapons, katas) is pandering to the demographic. GL's saying, "come on kids, this isn't a moldy old Grover muppet, he's a hyperactive kung fu master with a samurai sword" "...that loves diet Pepsi"

[Michel Orla]

Let me add the soundtrack. Its really good and far surpasses the soundtrack of the last two Star Wars movies. John Williams really catches the mood of this one

[Despondent]

They brought back DOTF. The Imp March, the force theme of course. Main Title and the jedi credits fanfare. That's about all I remember from the one viewing. Other than a greatest hits parade, what struck you in particular, Michel? Don't get me wrong, I love JW's SW work.

In the diet Pepsi commercial, Yoda almost does a hint of "ennnnghh. Mine! mine, or I'll help you not." That's worth Something.

[Storm Shadow]

Yoda had become a marketing gimmick pure and simple.  SW is for children, always has been and always will be, and that's fine. But to change a central character from a zenlike spiritual master into a John Woo action cliché (weapons, katas) is pandering to the demographic. GL's saying, "come on kids, this isn't a moldy old Grover muppet, he's a hyperactive kung fu master with a samurai sword"  "...that loves diet Pepsi"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you guys were kids you'd love this shit, you know you would! Why not make Yoda full of life and charismatic? Why not portray him a different light than how he was in the OT? This not as big as a deal as some of you guys make it out to be. You sound like grumpy bitter old men who had their viagra stolen.

[SPQR]

If you guys were kids you'd love this shit, you know you would! Why not make Yoda full of life and charismatic? Why not portray him a different light than how he was in the OT? This not as big as a deal as some of you guys make it out to be. You sound like grumpy bitter old men who had their viagra stolen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah because Yoda wasn't full of life and lacked charisma (only to become one of the most popular characters) ???

Why not make Obi Kenobi a repressed homosexual who really wants Anakin to pay more attention to his master instead of Padme?

Maybe, just maybe, because this diverts too much from the established character framework that has been layed down in other episodes which serve as sequals.

You're like the broken and pitiful old man who's happy to pay any price to have a go with anything that comes his way...

[ForceHippo]

Yoda had become a marketing gimmick pure and simple.  SW is for children, always has been and always will be, and that's fine. But to change a central character from a zenlike spiritual master into a John Woo action cliché (weapons, katas) is pandering to the demographic. GL's saying, "come on kids, this isn't a moldy old Grover muppet, he's a hyperactive kung fu master with a samurai sword"  "...that loves diet Pepsi"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree that the depiction of the Yoda character as sonic the hedgehog in the PT doesn't do him any good, but the arguments about him being a jedi master and not a jedi knight and thus not wields a lighsaber and similar are really weak. As a contrast to the wise old master in ESB it is not inconceivable, that a younger more vigourous(?) Yoda actually wielded a weapon when he defended the republic. I also very much like the Yodaesque way of preparing for battle; other people take off the gloves or their heavy robes when they mean business - Yoda throws his cane to the ground! To me this is a very good twist. My problem with the Yoda depiction lies with the seemingly cocaine-induced frenzy he goes into every time he is in battle, this is what deprives the character of his dignity. I'm convinced that a very much toned down Yoda would have done the trick. Another related more general problem with the PT is that the jedi constantly whip out their lightsabers, which creates an unwanted lightsaber saturation throughout the films. "A civilised weapon for a more civilised time" we are told in the OT. Having seen the PT I think a line like - "A more efficient weapon for a time when you needed to cut something in half every other minute" - would have been more appropriate.

[Cyclonian]

There is really nothing wrong with Yoda using a lightsaber. It isnt like he does it all the time. In the movies, he has used it as a last resort. Does anyone actually dispute this?

[floppydisk]

No, but all this shows is a weak script. If Yoda would be cooler without the saber, make it so he never has to use it. Plus, GL's attitude towards action (more, more, more) made him think 'what could be better than Yoda with a saber? NOTHING!"

*insert dollar signs in his eyes*

[Michel Orla]

They brought back DOTF. The Imp March, the force theme of course. Main Title and the jedi credits fanfare. That's about all I remember from the one viewing. Other than a greatest hits parade, what struck you in particular, Michel? Don't get me wrong, I love JW's SW work.

In the diet Pepsi commercial, Yoda almost does a hint of "ennnnghh. Mine! mine, or I'll help you not." That's worth Something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well you're right, one of the reasons the soundtrack is good is because it brought back some of the classics (somewhat surprising knowing Lucas's penchant for change. Im glad he decided he DIDNT want a new theme for Vader) But both Anakin's Dark Deed (Pretty sure its refering to his killing of the padiwans) and Anakin and Obi Wan's Duel have great scores, using the same sort of effect as Duel of the Fates. Of course it makes it better that segments from Vaders March appears in both

This post has been edited by Michel Orla: 26 May 2005 - 09:32 PM

[Veer]

There is really nothing wrong with Yoda using a lightsaber. It isnt like he does it all the time. In the movies, he has used it as a last resort. Does anyone  actually dispute this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yoda is the wise old sage of the trilogy. For every warrior, there comes a time when he puts away his sword and takes up the pen instead. Yoda was a jedi who had transcended fighting, transcended weapons, and had devoted his life to 'higher' things. Notice he never taught Luke how to weild a lightsaber - he taught him the ways of the force instead.

Having Yoda weild a weapon would have been acceptabel if done right. But it wasn't.
That said his duel with the Emperor in ROTS was far better than vs Dooku in AOTC, mainly becasue we didn't see him jumping around so much.

[floppydisk]

Are you kidding? He was like a squirrel on crack! He was like a pinball machine! He was like me when I have too many sodas! I'm not sure what movie you were watching, but he leapt everywhere, onto platforms, onto Palpy, over Palpy, and even rolled on the ground once.