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"Your Father wanted you to have this..."

#16 User is offline   Dunedain Icon

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 07:52 PM

QUOTE (Twig Bear @ May 25 2005, 03:11 AM)
I am just waiting to see some sorry gusher try to explain this one away.  Obi-wan clearly indicates that Anakin wanted Luke to have the lightsaber, not that Anakin would have wanted Luke to have the lightsaber.


Okay, check it out:

In AOTC Obi-Wan holds up Anakin's lightsaber and says "This weapon is your life". So, when Obi-Wan gives Anakin's lightsaber to Luke in ANH, he is, in effect, giving Anakin's life into Luke's hands. The fate of the galaxy- the life of Anakin Skywalker- is being entrusted to Luke. Obi-Wan was being truthful; if metaphysical- and no one could ever deny that Jedi think metaphysically.

Don't buy it? How about this:

Obi-Wan was telling the truth, which means that- even if we never heard it "onsceen"- I can infer that Anakin mentioned it to him at some time "offscreen".

No? How about:

Obi-Wan was remembering falsley. It had been 20 years of solitude in a wasteland. "I could've swore he said that".

Still not buying it? Okay:

Obi-Wan was telling a lie.
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#17 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 08:43 PM

nope...

he sould have said: "your father would have wanted you to have this."

and anikan and obiwan have a big conversation about R2...
obi should have remembered him...

to all gushers... a big fat flamage to ye all...

you should not have to make excuses for this shit... and if you do, and run out of bullshit... 'who cares' is insufficient...
(and inconsistant, but then that's what you're all into... wink.gif)

the fact of the matter is... and i want you to all reapeat after me...
George Lucas does not care anymore about story telling, this franchise, or us. He knows the name alone will make the money he wants! he doesn't care enough to make things consistent with the Originals (even though that is the only prerequisit of making a prequel), and he is not double checking anything, because he knows his legions of fanboys will not care about major details, because they are too esily distracted by flashing lights and exploding things to care about dialogue and story.

SO STOP MAKING EXCUSES!!!

this lightsabre error bites the bbig one, and you all know it...
underneath all that visuall sugary icing!!!

YOU TOTALLY KNOW IT!!!
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#18 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 10:19 PM

I wish I'd known him.
He was the best pod racer on tatooine, and a lucky fighter. And he was a good friend after he was no longer my apprentice.
How did my father die?
When your father became evil, I confronted him and left him to be consumed by liquid hot lava on Mustafar. Which reminds me - I took this from your father's smouldering corpse... if he wasn't evil and immolated, he would have wanted you to have this when you were old enough but your uncle wouldn't allow it.

Hmmmm....
Still, it was nice to see him take the lightsaber, so something was still there. I know I'm clearing that one up and having Anakin give his lightsaber with the express purpose of going to his child after he is finished making a new one.
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#19 User is offline   Veer Icon

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 10:36 PM

QUOTE (floppydisk @ May 25 2005, 02:46 PM)
But they were decietful towards Luke in the origional trilogy too. You don't think that lying about his father is decietful?


The point is that Obi-wan goes from telling one white lie, to pretty much lying about everything.
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#20 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 11:24 PM

QUOTE (Mnesymone @ May 25 2005, 10:19 PM)
Which reminds me - I took this from your father's smouldering corpse...

What would have been real cool is if Obi-wan had picked up Another couple of light sabers.
And then dropped his robe to reveal FOUR arms ready for battle. That would have been sweet.
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#21 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 11:34 PM

Too funny, too funny by half, Lord spondent.
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#22 User is offline   Cyclonian Icon

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Posted 26 May 2005 - 03:43 PM

Oh oh I see the prequels are not looked at fondly around here. I better make sure not to mention it! laugh.gif
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#23 User is offline   Dunedain Icon

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 11:13 AM

QUOTE (barend @ May 25 2005, 09:43 PM)
he sould have said: "your father would have wanted you to have this."


Yeah, but that's really a case of "coulda, shoulda, woulda- didn't". He said what he said. Sure, you can jump on him and scream "Liar!" but you don't have to. It only works that way if your premise is something like "All dialogue in all movies must be consistently related to every other piece of dialogue, and there can never be an inference to some dialogue that may be spoken offscreen. All viewers must be able to view the film/book from the omniscient point of view".

But, if that's your premise- good luck in finding ANY work of fiction that is satisfactory.

QUOTE
and anikan and obiwan have a big conversation about R2...
obi should have remembered him...


Who says he didn't? There was no thought bubble that popped over Ben's head saying "I don't remember r2-d2".

QUOTE
to all gushers... a big fat flamage to ye all...


Personally, I wouldn't think I was a gusher. I have problems with all of the films. But they are so small and trivial that they're easily over-looked. It's not an easy task to write something as big as these stories without inadvertant inconsistencies. But, at the same time, a reader/viewer with any imagination can come up with his own creative interpretations of these things.

QUOTE
you should not have to make excuses for this shit


Yeah, but I agree. No one should have to make excuses for this shit...

...because no one should be nit-picking to these degrees for excuses (read- imaginative interpretations) to be needed.

QUOTE
the fact of the matter is... and i want you to all reapeat after me...
George Lucas does not care anymore about story telling, this franchise, or us. He knows the name alone will make the money he wants! he doesn't care enough to make things consistent with the Originals (even though that is the only prerequisit of making a prequel), and he is not double checking anything, because he knows his legions of fanboys will not care about major details, because they are too esily distracted by flashing lights and exploding things to care about dialogue and story.


Well, that's really just some kind of caustic soap-boxing of baseless opinion. Come on.

QUOTE
SO STOP MAKING EXCUSES!!!

this lightsabre error bites the bbig one, and you all know it...
underneath all that visuall sugary icing!!!

YOU TOTALLY KNOW IT!!!


But it's only an error in your mind. It's only an error if your premise is sound. But fiction doesn't require that nothing can ever be left unexplained, and that anything left unexplained must necessarily be an error.
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#24 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 11:19 AM

here... I've fixed it for you.



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#25 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 11:43 AM

QUOTE (Dunedain @ May 27 2005, 11:13 AM)
It's not an easy task to write something as big as these stories without inadvertant inconsistencies. But, at the same time, a reader/viewer with any imagination can come up with his own creative interpretations of these things.

Yeah, but I agree. No one should have to make excuses for this shit...
...because no one should be nit-picking to these degrees for excuses (read- imaginative interpretations) to be needed.


sometimes when you read a book, not everything can be described or mentioned...
that's when you fill in a gap.

this, however, is a film. things happen in it that we see, hear, etc. all they had to do was WATCH the original films again and say, "oh right... liea remembers her mother so we can't kill her at birth, anikan wanted luke to have the lightsaber, anikan and obi wan were good friends, owen already owned C3P0," etc...
there is nothing hard about taking into consideration three of the biggest films and most watched films of all time...

instead it's "ah fuck it, start rolling we'll put 90% of the characters in during post production... one take everybody, don't bother matching shit up... the fans will fill in the gaps with some nonsense i'm sure..."

QUOTE (Dunedain @ May 27 2005, 11:13 AM)
Well, that's really just some kind of caustic soap-boxing of baseless opinion. Come on.


baseless? opinion?
really... the obvious lack of care that went into consistency, combined with the fanboy defence that is "you're too picky" "who cares?" "maybe this, and maybe that"

yes i'm the one drowning in opinion here...
there's a proffesional level to be maintained here and it's not...

it's hard to write a story? yeah it is... but if you base the story on something that already exists, you have to make the shit match the fuck up!!!

a few good fight scenes, some tensile cyborgs and robots generated by computers does not make a story work.

if that is all he was interested in, and macking the movies match up was "toom much hard work" then perhaps these last three films should have had nothing to do with the story we've been watching for the last 28 years!!!

QUOTE (Dunedain @ May 27 2005, 11:13 AM)
But it's only an error in your mind. It's only an error if your premise is sound. But fiction doesn't require that nothing can ever be left unexplained, and that anything left unexplained must necessarily be an error.


leaving things unexplained is a great way to create interest... mystique... etc.

he hasn't done that...

he told us one thing then showed us another....

that was not in my mind...

NOT EVEN SLIGHTLY!!!
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#26 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 29 May 2005 - 07:04 PM

forgot to adress this point...

QUOTE (Dunedain @ May 27 2005, 11:13 AM)
Yeah, but that's really a case of "coulda, shoulda, woulda- didn't". He said what he said. Sure, you can jump on him and scream "Liar!" but you don't have to. It only works that way if your premise is something like "All dialogue in all movies must be consistently related to every other piece of dialogue, and there can never be an inference to some dialogue that may be spoken offscreen. All viewers must be able to view the film/book from the omniscient point of view".

But, if that's your premise- good luck in finding ANY work of fiction that is satisfactory.


my premise is that: if you want to show us something based on something you said... feel free to make it the same thing.

"you're father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it."

now if the prequels had been made first you would not put that line in there. It suggests to much. if, like i had suggested, it had been, :"this was your father's. I'm sure he would have wanted you to have this." then the events of this recent film would have been alright...
however, the actual statement in ep4 suggests there was some sort of disscussion on the matter...

how hard would it have been to have had anikan at somepoint in the movie actually say something along those lines... there were many scenes we didn't need, where something like that could have gone...

"Yeah, but that's really a case of "coulda, shoulda, woulda- didn't". He said what he said. Sure, you can jump on him and scream "Liar!" but you don't have to."

don't have to...

it is to much to ask that people strive for some sort of quality where it matters. people have forgotten what film making is all about. and as long as people say, you don't have to pay attention to what's going on... people will just make movies of less quality each time.

This post has been edited by barend: 29 May 2005 - 07:05 PM

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#27 User is offline   ForceHippo Icon

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Posted 29 May 2005 - 08:19 PM

QUOTE (Dunedain @ May 27 2005, 11:13 AM)
Yeah, but I agree. No one should have to make excuses for this shit...

...because no one should be nit-picking to these degrees for excuses (read- imaginative interpretations) to be needed.

But it's only an error in your mind. It's only an error if your premise is sound. But fiction doesn't require that nothing can ever be left unexplained, and that anything left unexplained must necessarily be an error.


One of the great merits of the OT is that the films belong to the very few, which hold up to repeat viewings. This is so because they really do spur the imagination, since they leave many issues to your imagination while remaining sufficiently consistent. This overanalysis not only van be very entertaining it can also be quite profitable if you are a talented enough writer, i.e. Kevin Smith. The PT is however flawed in this respect, since due to CGI the inconsistent storytelling is not even the most prominent aspect of the films.

This argument about explanation for "your father wanted you to have this" being left to the imagination (offscreen dialogue etc.) is really weak. Let me illustrate by refering to what the film actually makes clear. Not until Obi is on his way to hunt down and kill Anakin he finds out that Padme is pregnant. This is totally clear from the scene between Obi and Padme before Obi catches a ride with her to Mustafar. This obviously implies that there is no offscreen-time between Anakin and Obi before their showdown. Thus, they can not have adressed the issue of giving away lightsabers to Anakin's offspring with Obi knowing about Ani's impending parentage. So, now I will use my imagination: there could have been a previous hypothetical off-screen conversation between Ani and Obi where Ani said something along the line of: "If I were to break my jedi wows and secretly marry and become a father to a boy and then turn to the dark side so you would have to kill me, then I want my boy to have my lightsaber." If someone wants to believe this - feel free. I however find it somewhat unlikely.

This post has been edited by ForceHippo: 29 May 2005 - 08:22 PM

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#28 User is offline   sniper968 Icon

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Posted 30 May 2005 - 10:06 AM

QUOTE (CowboyCurtis @ May 26 2005, 09:18 AM)
something that could've been great---yes, we may get into another "I Hate ROTJ" argument---because Vader could've just been messing with Luke, he didn't HAVE TO BE ANAKIN! 


Well, its not that bad. If Lucas had explained that Luke Skywalker had gone to the Death Star to assassinate the Emperor and Darth Vader- that might still have worked... instead of going to the DS on the stupid Campus Crusade mission.

Luke: "Oh daddy, believe in the Force and you'll be saved! The Force loves you and still has a wonderful plan for your life.There's still good in you." DUH..

Then you could have had Luke explaining to his nincompoop dad that he was being duped all along by the Emperor because Padme didn't die as claimed by the Emperor.

Oh wait... you have to rewrite Ep1,2 and 3 and 6.... smile.gif
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#29 User is offline   Michel Orla Icon

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Posted 30 May 2005 - 10:54 AM

You know what? It IS ROTJ fault. Thats where many of the plotholes of the story start to leak out. Ben tells Luke he and Leia were hidden from The Emperor (and one does assume Vader) when they were born. Lets disregard the PT for one minute, and one assumes Anakin turns to Vader before the twins were born, unless him and Obi Wan had a conversation about giving Luke Anakins lightsabre one day (which seems doubtful) then it can be chalk up to another stretching of the truth by that "crazy old wizard"

I mean it COULD be possible after Obi Wan beat Vader, just before he falls into the molten lava that scars him for life he tells Obi Wan "Give my unborn son my lightsabre"..but that would be even worse than Vader's "Noooooooooooooo"
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#30 User is offline   Veer Icon

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Posted 30 May 2005 - 03:56 PM

QUOTE (Michel Orla @ May 30 2005, 08:54 AM)
You know what? It IS ROTJ fault. Thats where many of the plotholes of the story start to leak out. Ben tells Luke he and Leia were hidden from The Emperor (and one does assume Vader) when they were born. Lets disregard the PT for one minute, and one assumes Anakin turns to Vader before the twins were born, unless him and Obi Wan had a conversation about giving Luke Anakins lightsabre one day (which seems doubtful) then it can be chalk up to another stretching of the truth by that "crazy old wizard"

I mean it COULD be possible after Obi Wan beat Vader, just before he falls into the molten lava that scars him for life he tells Obi Wan "Give my unborn son my lightsabre"..but that would be even worse than Vader's "Noooooooooooooo"


Well, I always assumed (before the PT) that Anakin turned to Vader quite late in his life - after he married Amidala and before the twins were born. Or at the very least he turned during her pregnancy.

Either way the inconsistency could have been solved if:

A) The Jedi were allowed to marry and have children.
cool.gif Anakin was planning to start a family.
C)Anakin mentions to Obi-wan one day that he wants his son to be a Jedi like him.
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