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Hypocritical Obi-Wan "Only the Sith deal in absolutes."

#1 User is offline   Flare Icon

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 04:07 PM

At a late point in the movie, after Anakin has turned to the dark side, Obi-Wan tries to bring him back. Anakin says "If you're not with me, you're against me" and Obi-Wan replies with something like "Only the Sith deal in absolutes." Is it just me, or does "Only the Sith deal in absolutes" sound like an absolute? Though the device shows that Obi-Wan realizes that there's no hope left for Anakin, there has to have been something he could have said that wouldn't sound so hypocritical.
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#2 User is offline   Richard Icon

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 04:11 PM

Hehe I think you're right.

don't you bloody swear at me!
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#3 User is offline   Lord Melkor Icon

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 04:19 PM

You are overacting a bit, Obi-wan was in no mental condition to make good disputes.

Maybe he meant that Jedi don`t divide people into good and evil, they are understanding, compassionate?
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#4 User is offline   SPQR Icon

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 04:22 PM

only the sith...





...and mathematicians


The whole SW premise is a battle of absolutes, you're either a jedi or a sith, an imperialist or a rebel. There is no gray.
i see an opening for the green party
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#5 User is offline   Flare Icon

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 04:34 PM

QUOTE (Lord Melkor @ May 24 2005, 01:19 PM)
You are overacting a bit, Obi-wan was in no mental condition to make good disputes.

Maybe he meant that Jedi don`t divide people into good and evil, they are understanding, compassionate?



Granted, but still something like "Those are the words of a Sith, not a Jedi" would have been a bit more appropriate. Obi-Wan's a powerful enough Jedi to have control of his word choice no matter what mental condition he's in, isn't he?
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#6 User is offline   Richard Icon

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 04:38 PM

Logically, what Obi Wan said was hypocritical. But it was just a line, just something he said off the top of his head, nothing too drastic. But it is funny to look at it and see that he's not really accurate in what he is saying.
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Posted 24 May 2005 - 04:41 PM

QUOTE (Flare @ May 24 2005, 10:34 PM)
Granted, but still something like "Those are the words of a Sith, not a Jedi" would have been a bit more appropriate. Obi-Wan's a powerful enough Jedi to have control of his word choice no matter what mental condition he's in, isn't he?



The larger problem is that GL added this line as a commentary on the Bush administration. However, he only shows his own hypocrisy for he has created a story which paints a world of right and wrong, good and bad, and moral absolutism over moral relavitism.

Basically, he's an idiot, a rich, rich idiot.
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#8 User is offline   Lord Melkor Icon

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 04:45 PM

You would like to be that rich, wouldn`t you? And he earned his money!

If it wasn`t for him, we wouldn`t even be here!

This post has been edited by Lord Melkor: 24 May 2005 - 05:03 PM

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#9 User is offline   ForceHippo Icon

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 06:21 PM

QUOTE (Flare @ May 24 2005, 04:07 PM)
At a late point in the movie, after Anakin has turned to the dark side, Obi-Wan tries to bring him back. Anakin says "If you're not with me, you're against me" and Obi-Wan replies with something like "Only the Sith deal in absolutes." Is it just me, or does "Only the Sith deal in absolutes" sound like an absolute? Though the device shows that Obi-Wan realizes that there's no hope left for Anakin, there has to have been something he could have said that wouldn't sound so hypocritical.


As far as my understanding of philosophy goes; here comes my little observation:
The quote "Only the Sith deal in absolutes." is definitely an absolute. On the other hand, if you apply a relativist approach to everything it will in the end be impossible to suggest anything - hardly a satisfactory situation for the sake pf communication. Therefore philosophers use axioms (sort of absolutes) in their arguments, i.e. most often a standpoint, that everyone can agree on. This means that it is possible to say - "Only the Sith deal in absolutes." - as long as it is undeniably true, that this is the case. So Obi could possibly say such a thing without being an absolutist himself, but immediately two problems with this line of dialogue arises. First, it is not entirely evident, that the Sith only deals in absolutes, since Palps for instance tells Ani that he has studied both aspects of the Force to understand the bigger picture. Second, (and to me more disturbing) in the same scene Obi goes on to state that: "The Sith are evil", which definitely is an absolutist statement. This is much more tricky to pull off, since notions of good and evil depend to a great extent on your own points of view.
Alas, bad line of dialogue, which make Obi seem somewhat inconsistent!
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Posted 24 May 2005 - 06:32 PM

QUOTE (Lord Melkor @ May 24 2005, 10:45 PM)
You would like to be that rich, wouldn`t you? And he earned his money!

If it wasn`t for him, we wouldn`t even be here!



I don't think GL is responsible for my life, unless of course he impregnated my mother with midoclorians. Furthermore, it is rather unimportant wether i'm "here" at this forum or not, it's not the sum of my existence. In short time the picking apart of ROTS will bore me, and I'll be off...

it's people like you who have created a virtual existence off the back of GL that need worry
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#11 User is offline   Richard Icon

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 06:45 PM

QUOTE (ForceHippo @ May 24 2005, 11:21 PM)
As far as my understanding of philosophy goes; here comes my little observation:
The quote "Only the Sith deal in absolutes." is definitely an absolute. On the other hand, if you apply a relativist approach to everything it will in the end be impossible to suggest anything  - hardly a satisfactory situation for the sake pf communication. Therefore philosophers use axioms (sort of absolutes) in their arguments, i.e. most often a standpoint, that everyone can agree on. This means that it is possible to say - "Only the Sith deal in absolutes." - as long as it is undeniably true, that this is the case. So Obi could possibly say such a thing without being an absolutist himself, but immediately two problems with this line of dialogue arises. First, it is not entirely evident, that the Sith only deals in absolutes, since Palps for instance tells Ani that he has studied both aspects of the Force to understand the bigger picture. Second, (and to me more disturbing) in the same scene Obi goes on to state that: "The Sith are evil", which definitely is an absolutist statement. This is much more tricky to pull off, since notions of good and evil depend to a great extent on your own points of view.
Alas, bad line of dialogue, which make Obi seem somewhat inconsistent!



I don't see a problem with dealing in absolutes, if something IS absolute. The problem comes when someone is trying to be absolute about something which they are unsure of, or they're wrong about. People will debate about what is absolute, and in what way it is absolute. But the idea of absolutes, I don't have a problem with
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Posted 24 May 2005 - 07:29 PM

this thread is absolutely spent...
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#13 User is offline   ernesttomlinson Icon

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 08:14 PM

If I've told you once, I've told you a million times, don't exaggerate.
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#14 User is offline   Lord Melkor Icon

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 03:18 AM

SPQR, I am not a worshipper of Lucas, I just show respect to people who achieved sucess on great scale.

Just like I would never bash Bill Gates for making bad business.

If Jackson made not so good film, I would not bash him too.
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#15 User is offline   SPQR Icon

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 03:25 AM

[quote=Lord Melkor,May 25 2005, 09:18 AM]
SPQR, I am not a worshipper of Lucas, I just show respect to people who achieved sucess on great scale.

Just like I would never bash Bill Gates for making bad business.

It's nice to see that simple tenets still dictate peoples lives. First, you define success as the ability to accumulate monetary wealth.
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