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WORST MOMENT (spoiler)

#46 User is offline   Darth_Imhatinit Icon

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 11:27 PM

The worst part about ROTS is its most central thesis: Anakin turns to the Dark Side based on .... nothing.

He has visions of Padme's death, but he has nothing to substantiate these visions. He has not had prophetic visions come true before, has he? Since when is he the Darth Kwisatz Haderach? Troubling, these visions may be. But to destroy the Republic and turn to the Dark Side?

Palpatine offers inane promises of "creating life," but provides no proof, not even a shred of proof. Not even an allegation that this horribly and laughably named Darth Plagueis actually performed such a feat. I offer the sad proof:

QUOTE
PALPATINE: I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life ... He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying.

ANAKIN: He could actually save people from death?

PALPATINE: The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.


Would not it have been far, far superior if something had actually occurred to Padme? Something so terrible that it forced Anakin to make his terrible choice?

Thus, the greatest of jedi turns to the dark side based on absolutely nothing.

Sad.

This post has been edited by Darth_Imhatinit: 24 May 2005 - 11:41 PM

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#47 User is offline   Madam Corvax Icon

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 12:58 AM

QUOTE (Darth_Imhatinit @ May 24 2005, 11:27 PM)
The worst part about ROTS is its most central thesis: Anakin turns to the Dark Side based on .... nothing.

He has visions of Padme's death, but he has nothing to substantiate these visions. He has not had prophetic visions come true before, has he?  Since when is he the Darth Kwisatz Haderach? Troubling, these visions may be.  But to destroy the Republic and turn to the Dark Side?

Palpatine offers inane promises of "creating life," but provides no proof, not even a shred of proof.  Not even an allegation that this horribly and laughably named Darth Plagueis actually performed such a feat. 


It occured to me on repeated viewing. What happens to Anakin is for me unbelievable. I can buy tht he is so worried about Padme that he is willing to turn to the dark side, however lame that might be. Ok, so e does, and then right away he asks Palpy

- so can you save her?

What P. answers is like well, not yet, but if he combine forces we might be able to do it. And Anakin buys it! Does not say, wait a moment, dude, but you said you could.

Ok, let's say he is at this point gullible enough to accept this lame promise. He is turned to Vader,and when he asks where is Padme, P. says you killed her. If I were Anakin, at this point I would kill Palpy. The guy made false promises and indirectly caused Padme's death, and yet Vader serves him for the next 20 years. I mean, WTF? Why? Can any of you give me a half-believable explanation?
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#48 User is offline   Sauron Icon

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 02:13 AM

If anyone cares...

My problem with the way Vader delivered his 'Nooooo' was that he delivered in his 'whiney' voice...REALLY WHINEY

I wanted real ANGER - ANGER AND DESPAIR

that's why it was laughable, also the Frankenstien walk which I perfectly undertand, BUT I'd would rahter him fall to his knees and SCREAM NOOOOO not whine it....
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#49 User is offline   Lord Melkor Icon

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 03:23 AM

QUOTE (Darth_Imhatinit @ May 25 2005, 05:27 AM)
The worst part about ROTS is its most central thesis: Anakin turns to the Dark Side based on .... nothing.

He has visions of Padme's death, but he has nothing to substantiate these visions. He has not had prophetic visions come true before, has he?  Since when is he the Darth Kwisatz Haderach? Troubling, these visions may be.  But to destroy the Republic and turn to the Dark Side?

Palpatine offers inane promises of "creating life," but provides no proof, not even a shred of proof.  Not even an allegation that this horribly and laughably named Darth Plagueis actually performed such a feat.  I offer the sad proof:
Would not it have been far, far superior if something had actually occurred to Padme?  Something so terrible that it forced Anakin to make his terrible choice?

Thus, the greatest of jedi turns to the dark side based on absolutely nothing.

Sad.



Have you even watched those films!?

He has a vision of his Mather dying, and guess what? She died!
And after watching AOTC I had no doubt it would be easy to turn him, this guy had problems.
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#50 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 03:58 AM

QUOTE
He has visions of Padme's death, but he has nothing to substantiate these visions. He has not had prophetic visions come true before, has he?


yes he has, he had visions of his mother dying and that came true.
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#51 User is offline   SPQR Icon

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 07:59 AM

QUOTE (Darth_Imhatinit @ May 25 2005, 05:27 AM)
The worst part about ROTS is its most central thesis: Anakin turns to the Dark Side based on .... nothing.

He has visions of Padme's death, but he has nothing to substantiate these visions. He has not had prophetic visions come true before, has he?  Since when is he the Darth Kwisatz Haderach? Troubling, these visions may be.  But to destroy the Republic and turn to the Dark Side?

Palpatine offers inane promises of "creating life," but provides no proof, not even a shred of proof.  Not even an allegation that this horribly and laughably named Darth Plagueis actually performed such a feat.  I offer the sad proof:
Would not it have been far, far superior if something had actually occurred to Padme?  Something so terrible that it forced Anakin to make his terrible choice?

Thus, the greatest of jedi turns to the dark side based on absolutely nothing.

Sad.


I can't help but feel that if Yoda had taken Anakin aside to counsel him that the whole switcheroo would have been adverted. Why the hell couldn't Yoda sense his conflicting emotions, and then do something about them himself, besides dumping them on the often inept Kenobi (Obi does not have the bedside manner needed)? Then, Windu is handed the job of telling Anakin to chill. Yoda needed to stop delegating down to the morons surrounding him. No wonder why most ate it without a fight. Funny how only the humanoid Jedi are of any use.
An nescis quantilla sapientia mundus regatur
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#52 User is offline   Darth_Imhatinit Icon

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 09:43 AM

no no no

anakin does not see into the future to see his mother dying

he sees her in her present state, i.e., being tortured and abused by the people of the sand

nowhere does he evidence prophetic ability

surely you see the vast difference between sensing something current and actually seeing the future
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#53 User is offline   Primetime Icon

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 09:56 AM

Anakin's turn is ridiculously unbelievable, thus spoiling the entire movie. That and having absolutely no good reason for Padme to die.

This post has been edited by Primetime: 25 May 2005 - 09:56 AM

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#54 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 11:20 AM

QUOTE
no no no

anakin does not see into the future to see his mother dying


The point is that he had a strong vision of her, which turned out to be true. Hense he strongly believes this vision of Padme dying will turn out the same.
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#55 User is offline   Michel Orla Icon

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 12:08 PM

QUOTE (jariten @ May 25 2005, 11:20 AM)
The point is that he had a strong vision of her, which turned out to be true. Hense he strongly believes this vision of Padme dying will turn out the same.


Which I wish we didn't have to see. I always liked the fact we never got to Luke's vision of Han and Leia suffering....left much more to the imagination
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#56 User is offline   Primetime Icon

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 12:15 PM

Yeah, those "visions" of Padme were weird and cheesy.

This post has been edited by Primetime: 25 May 2005 - 12:19 PM

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#57 User is offline   Lord Melkor Icon

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 12:19 PM

Would you prefer those visions?

http://padme.ytmnd.com/

This post has been edited by Lord Melkor: 25 May 2005 - 12:36 PM

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#58 User is offline   Reindeer Icon

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 01:06 PM

QUOTE (Madam Corvax @ May 24 2005, 10:58 PM)
It occured to me on repeated viewing. What happens to Anakin is for me unbelievable. I can buy tht he is so worried about Padme that he is willing to turn to the dark side, however lame that might be. Ok, so e does, and then right away he asks Palpy

- so can you save her?

What P. answers is like well, not yet, but if he combine forces we might be able to do it. And Anakin buys it! Does not say, wait a moment, dude, but you said you could.

Ok, let's say he is at this point gullible enough to accept this lame promise. He is turned to Vader,and when he asks where is Padme, P. says you killed her. If I were Anakin, at this point I would kill Palpy. The guy made false promises and indirectly caused Padme's death, and yet Vader serves him for the next 20 years. I mean, WTF? Why? Can any of you give me a half-believable explanation?


I fully agree... Anakin's conversion to the dark side was weak at best, and completely unconvincing. The whole scenario is really pretty stuipd. The Jedi Order had all along been treating Anakin like crap, despite the fact that he managed to save their collective butts several times. Something I mentioned in a previous thread is that the story setup a conflict of interest with Anakin, forcing him to choose between the Jedi Order or his old friend and mentor. I think if I were Anakin, I would tell both sides to blow it out their pants and strike out on my own.

Besides, when exactly did Anakin turn from being the sickenly sweet kid on Tatooine into the arrogant, whiney asshole in the last two films?

Here is an idea for an alternate story:

The Jedi Counsel discovers that Anakin and Padme are married (like they couldn't have possibly picked up on the clues from the last film wacko.gif ), and force Anakin to make a choice between the Order (aka the Jedi Code) and Padme. Torn between love and duty, Anakin of course chooses his wife.

Anakin, feeling betrayed (after all, how many times has he saved the butts of those ingrates?), runs to his friend and mentor Palpatine for help and advice. Palpatine, seeing the opportunity, sooths and supports Anakin, but in the process plants the seeds of revenge and animosity towards the Jedi Order. Palpatine offers to keep him on as his personal protector, at least until things can be "worked out" with the Jedi (an empty promise). At some point shortly after, the Jedi discover that Palpatine is indeed a Sith Lord, and make a move against Palpatine to remove him from office. Palpatine plays it off as being the innocent victim of a viscious plot to have him killed and overthrow the Republic. Anakin witnesses this, and becomes convinced that the Jedi Counsel has become corrupted and turned to evil. At that point Anakin intervenes on the part of Palpatine. SNAP! The trap has been sprung. Anakin has now started down the path to the dark side.

Needless to say, Palpatine continues to be very coy and subtle, not wanting to reveal who he is until Anakin is fully in his grasp.

Palpatine makes Anakin out to be a great hero of the Republic. He then plays off of Anakin's pride and arrogance, and offers him almost unlimited power and glory; and a chance to fulfill his destiny as "the chosen one" by bringing order and justice to the Republic. He makes a case similar to the one Padme made that the Republic no longer works as it is, that there is too much corruption and evil present as evidenced by the "treacherous" Jedi Order, and suggests (using the Force to read Anakin's thoughts) that only a wise and benevolent ruler can fix the problem. That wise and benevolent ruler of course is Palpatine. All Anakin has to do to make this utopian vision happen is pledge allegience to Palpatine, and become his student/protoge'. Furthermore, Anakin can still remain married to Padme. Anakin of course accepts, perhaps not fully realizing that he is now a pawn of the soon-to-be Emperor.

Anakin, egged on by Palpatine, feels that he has "unfinished business" with the Jedi Counsel. He then proceeds to destroy the Jedi Temple, fully (but mistakenly) thinking that he is doing the right thing by eliminating their "evil" from the galaxy and bringing balance to the force. Since Anakin is at the core still good and honorable, he chooses NOT kill off the younglings, instead driving them off. Most of the younglings are later rounded up by Imperial troops and then killed by order of the Emperor.

At some point later Obi Wan and Padme, who still love Anakin, confront him in a last ditch effort to bring him back from the dark side, and show Anakin the truth about Palpatine. Obi Wan still senses the good in him. Anakin who still see the Jedi as evil, think that both Obi Wan and Padme have betrayed him. Anakin in his rage mortally wounds Padme. A fight then ensues between Anakin and Obi Wan. Obi Wan defeats Anakin, and leaves him for dead.

Later, Anakin is rescued and rebuilt into Vader. When Vader revives, the only emotions he can feel are anger and hatred. He blames Obi Wan for what happened to him and his wife, and swears to destroy him and the remaining Jedi at any cost. Anakin has now fully converted over to the dark side.

Baaah! It still sounds like a bad plot out of a comic book. Still, it would make more sense than the way GL decided to execute the plot.
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#59 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 01:34 PM

QUOTE
Which I wish we didn't have to see. I always liked the fact we never got to Luke's vision of Han and Leia suffering....left much more to the imagination


How do other people feel about the visions? it might be worth starting a topic about. They were totally unlike anything we've seen in SW before, and I thought they were really powerful- esp. the first one (which came right after one of the 'love scenes').
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#60 User is offline   littlejerryseinfeld Icon

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 02:48 PM

QUOTE (Madam Corvax @ May 25 2005, 12:58 AM)
It occured to me on repeated viewing. What happens to Anakin is for me unbelievable. I can buy tht he is so worried about Padme that he is willing to turn to the dark side, however lame that might be. Ok, so e does, and then right away he asks Palpy

- so can you save her?

What P. answers is like well, not yet, but if he combine forces we might be able to do it. And Anakin buys it! Does not say, wait a moment, dude, but you said you could.

Ok, let's say he is at this point gullible enough to accept this lame promise. He is turned to Vader,and when he asks where is Padme, P. says you killed her. If I were Anakin, at this point I would kill Palpy. The guy made false promises and indirectly caused Padme's death, and yet Vader serves him for the next 20 years. I mean, WTF? Why? Can any of you give me a half-believable explanation?


right on, madam... couldn't say it any better myself... i would've turned and force-kicked the emporer in the ballsack.

i mean - he blames obi-wan for everything with absolutely no reason... but he doesn't conclude that it was the emperor who was indirectly responsible for padme's death???

stupid.
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