[Helena]

Why does Qui Gon need to teach anything to Luke when clearly instructing Luke (when the time came) is a job that Obi Wan has set aside for himself?

Given that Qui-Gon appears to have become The Fount of All Wisdom and Knowledge (despite the fact that he never showed any evidence of this when he was alive), surely he should be the default choice to advise and instruct Luke? At the very least you'd expect him to appear once or twice in the OT, and get the occasional mention, given that according to the Prequels it was him rather than Yoda who trained Obi-Wan.

Why do you find it so hard to buy? The only other way out is to have the Jedi join the force automatically, which would have been a mistake as it wouldve greatly reduced the power (and purpose) of them all being wiped out. If if wasnt Qui Gon, who else could it have been? some EU character from 500 years before TPM, a jedi not even in the films? Or perhaps Yoda could have read it in some book (i actually heard this was the case, thank God its not). sorry, I think its far, far more interesting dramatically to have the focus of this new power be a Jedi we already know and care about.

Um... I always assumed that the Jedi did join the Force automatically when they died, and that this had been commonly known since the time of the earliest Jedi. Isn't it part of their Code, for heavens' sake? Why else would Obi-Wan tell Anakin that 'he is one with the Force' at Qui-Gon's funeral? I'm not saying that ghosts would appear very often, but the idea that it hadn't happened once before in over 25,000 years is insane - as is the idea that some random human Jedi, who didn't even come across as particularly 'wise' during his lifetime, would discover this ahead of someone like Yoda. You may be able to accept this; I most certainly can't.

And as for saying that it would destroy the purpose of their being wiped out, that's ridiculous. Ghosts can't touch things or fight battles or do anything except talk to people, and even that only happens on occasion. Did seeing (and hearing) Obi-Wan and Yoda as ghosts destroy the impact of their deaths? It certainly didn't appear to do so for Luke.

[jariten]

Given that Qui-Gon appears to have become The Fount of All Wisdom and Knowledge (despite the fact that he never showed any evidence of this when he was alive), surely he should be the default choice to advise and instruct Luke? At the very least you'd expect him to appear once or twice in the OT, and get the occasional mention, given that according to the Prequels it was him rather than Yoda who trained Obi-Wan.

I know what you mean, but really, how else could Lucas have written it, considering he wrote the first episode in 1976 and the last one in 2003? I much prefer this version to the idea that Obi Wan or Yoda somehow found out by reading it in a book in that Jedi library or something. It feels right that the secret should be discovered by this maverik, intelligent Jedi who followed his own rules (although you're right, there was no suggestion of what he would eventually do in ep3).

Um... I always assumed that the Jedi did join the Force automatically when they died, and that this had been commonly known since the time of the earliest Jedi. Isn't it part of their Code, for heavens' sake?

No, I dont think it is.

Why else would Obi-Wan tell Anakin that 'he is one with the Force' at Qui-Gon's funeral?

He didnt.

And as for saying that it would destroy the purpose of their being wiped out, that's ridiculous. Ghosts can't touch things or fight battles or do anything except talk to people, and even that only happens on occasion

Well, if you kill someone, then in the next scene they come back looking identical, and still speaking words of wisdom, then yes it does diminish the impact of their deaths. And from a story standpoint, it makes Palpatines desire to wipe out the Jedi pointless if they're invincible, and still 'alive' (albeit in a non-corperal state) even after you've shot them to bits. How much of a drab anti climax would that be?

[Helena]

I know what you mean, but really, how else could Lucas have written it, considering he wrote the first episode in 1976 and the last one in 2003? I much prefer this version to the idea that Obi Wan or Yoda somehow found out by reading it in a book in that Jedi library or something. It feels right that the secret should be discovered by this maverik, intelligent Jedi who followed his own rules (although you're right, there was no suggestion of what he would eventually do in ep3).

It shouldn't need to be 'discovered' by anyone. It should be common knowledge to the Jedi - nothing was ever said in the OT to suggest that it wasn't. Qui-Gon himself, and the whole idea of Jedi ghosts being a 'secret', WERE NOT NEEDED. All they do is screw up continuity and mess up something that made perfect sense in the first place, and didn't need an explanation.

No, I dont think it is.

'There is no death, there is the Force?'

He didnt.

OK, it's a very long time since I saw the film, but I'm pretty sure he did. It's certainly in the script.

Well, if you kill someone, then in the next scene they come back looking identical, and still speaking words of wisdom, then yes it does diminish the impact of their deaths. And from a story standpoint, it makes Palpatines desire to wipe out the Jedi pointless if they're invincible, and still 'alive' (albeit in a non-corperal state) even after you've shot them to bits. How much of a drab anti climax would that be?

They're not still 'alive'! They're just transparent shades that can't do anything except talk, let alone stand up to Palpatine! And Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Yoda do come back looking identical and still speaking words of wisdom, so if you can accept it for them then why not for other Jedi? What would be a sensible explanation was what the OT implied in the first place - that ghosts only show up when they're needed for some reason, e.g. to give advice. What's the point of complicating things with an 'explanation' that makes far less sense, and throws up a hundred more questions?

[StarWarsIsUs]

""it makes Palpatines desire to wipe out the Jedi pointless if they're invincible, and still 'alive' (albeit in a non-corperal state) even after you've shot them to bits. How much of a drab anti climax would that be?''

Indeed. If we follow the concept of 'all jedi can come back as ghosts', then that makes the Jedi too immortal. And Palpatine trying to kill them all, would make it pointless as a story. Its a much better story, if you have only SOME Jedi coming back as ghosts, and having it as a privledge only assigned to an elect few.

[DarthTherion]

Every living thing joins the Force when it dies. What we're talking about here is the ability to retain one's individual personality after merging with it.

QGJ keeps his personality, but his link to the physical plane is very weak at best. He *doesn't* appear as a ghost, only as a voice. This is why he isn't in the OT. By that time, anything left of him is gone.

Obi-wan and Yoda train for 20 years and can thus maintain a real presence in the world after their deaths.

Since QGJ did not practice the technique, that is why his body did not disappear and why he cannot manifest as a ghost.

[Helena]

Indeed. If we follow the concept of 'all jedi can come back as ghosts', then that makes the Jedi too immortal. And Palpatine trying to kill them all, would make it pointless as a story. Its a much better story, if you have only SOME Jedi coming back as ghosts, and having it as a privledge only assigned to an elect few.

What do you mean 'too immortal'? What difference can it make when they can't actually do anything? And Palpatine does try to kill them all, which is why only Obi-Wan and Yoda are left by the OT. I agree that you can't have them all coming back as ghosts, but you don't need to, even if it's possible for all of them. It should only happen when there's a very good reason for it, as was the case in the OT.

The stupid thing is that I don't even care all that much how Jedi learn to appear as ghosts, or why some of their bodies disappear and others don't. What I'm fed up of are the weak attempts to explain it, none of which make much sense, and all of which are contradicted by one thing or another in the movies (Anakin doesn't practice this 'technique', so if that's the explanation, how come he appears as a ghost as well?) I wish people would just cut the crap and accept that it's a continuity error, which even Lucas himself appears to have done in this case.

[StarWarsIsUs]

""And Palpatine does try to kill them all, which is why only Obi-Wan and Yoda are left by the OT. ""

I meant this in context of if all the Jedi came back as ghosts.

[Richard]

The stupid thing is that I don't even care all that much how Jedi learn to appear as ghosts, or why some of their bodies disappear and others don't. What I'm fed up of are the weak attempts to explain it, none of which make much sense, and all of which are contradicted by one thing or another in the movies (Anakin doesn't practice this 'technique', so if that's the explanation, how come he appears as a ghost as well?) I wish people would just cut the crap and accept that it's a continuity error, which even Lucas himself appears to have done in this case.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes

[jariten]

They're not still 'alive'! They're just transparent shades that can't do anything except talk, let alone stand up to Palpatine!

OK, they're actually dead, but to the audience, the shock of their death would be totally cancelled out by the fact that they could reappear in the next scene

"Yoo hoo!! now we cant be killed and we'll be a thorn in your side forever!!"

and if it was always a given that all Jedi knew how to come back as Force ghosts, why arent they swarming all over the place at the time of ANH?

"Their fire has gone out of the galaxy...except for the 5 jedi ghosts stood over there in the corner giving me the finger".

And you really shouldnt underestimate their influence, considering the council that obi wan was able to give Luke even after he 'died'.

'There is no death, there is the Force?'

I understand that you probably havnt watched TPM since '99, but that line was not in the film.

And Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Yoda do come back looking identical and still speaking words of wisdom, so if you can accept it for them then why not for other Jedi?

I dont have a problem with Jedi ghosts per se, I thought we were discussing why they all didnt come back as Force ghosts. I really think it was done in order to maintain the shock of the Jedi purge in episode 3.

Anakin doesn't practice this 'technique', so if that's the explanation, how come he appears as a ghost as well?

This is the only error as I see it (I did mention this myself a while back), and although the presence of Obi and Yoda at his side might help to give an answer, its not big enough of a problem to really hurt the films for me.

[StarWarsIsUs]

""This is the only error as I see it (I did mention this myself a while back), and although the presence of Obi and Yoda at his side might help to give an answer, its not big enough of a problem to really hurt the films for me. ""

Right. Its a small, almost insignificant error.

[floppydisk]

Oh my GOD! This is turning into a Helena/Jariten post war, with SWIU taking pot shots in between. This is why I don't post here often, I come back and have to read a page and a half of ping pong argument. At least your not flaming anymore. Thanks for that.

This post has been edited by floppydisk: 23 May 2005 - 08:56 PM

[StarWarsIsUs]

I've totally stopped flaming the PT, bud. You're safe here.

[floppydisk]

Whew...

[Supes]

Late arrival to this one but here are my perceptions:

Before the OT I believed it was fairly simple. There was no explaination needed because Yoda, Obi-Wan and even Darth Vader willingly gave up their lives:

Yoda - knew it was his time, he makes that statement when he talks about twilight being upon him.

Obi-Wan - allows Vader to cut him in two knowing that it was also his time and that he could still provide influence to Luke and set him on his path to Yoda.

Vader - When he picks up the Emperor (thus dodgily redeeming himself) knows that it will cause his own death but willingly gives himself to death to help his son.

Now the PT comes along and Jedi's don't disappear when they die. No big deal as far as I was concerned because they all died in combat situations and did not necessarily give themselves over to death. It still made sense. But then we have to add the detail that Qui-Gon is now speaking to people. All right, Jedi can communicate for a time after their death before fully becoming one with the force.

Unfortunately it did not stop there. Had it done so my own personal belief would not have been harmed. As it turns out though, this is a relatively new phenomenon only just recently learned by Qui-Gon (although not referenced until Sith). Kind of made it a real waste as far as I was concerned. It didn't need explaining where it came from. Jedi aren't all powerful after they die. They can communicate for a period of time with those close to them but they eventually move on. Not to hard really, but too simply I guess for George.

[Mnesymone]

On the subject of force ghosts I always thought it was a person to person thing - that a Jedi or Sith could, at their death, anchor themselves to a place or person. Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin anchored themselves to Luke - that was also how I explained the darkside cave on Dagobah. Works for me.