[DarthTherion]

The official story, detailed in the novel and the deleted scene (and explained fairly well -- albeit too briefly -- in the film) is that Qui Gon *somehow* learns the secret to maintaining one's personality after merging with the Force. This is not explained any further. It doesn't really need to be, since it works fine as a mysterious, mystical concept. Qui Gon seemed wise in TPM, so perhaps his exceptional connection to the Force enabled him to linger as an essence.

He does not appear as a ghost, but only as a voice, presumably because his connection to the physical plane is rather weak. This is because he did not practice the "technique" for 20 years before he died. Obi-wan and Yoda do practice the technique -- "If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." Did you notice how confused Vader looks after Obi-wan disappears? Well, as confused as a man in a mask can look, anyway....

Obviously, Anakin had never seen something like that before.

Anakin does not vanish after his redemption. I think I've read that George Lucas felt that this would be too confusing, since Anakin is mostly a machine, anyway. Personally, I would have what's left of his body vanish, leaving only the armor -- maybe this can be fixed in one of the next few "special editions" that Lucas will inflict on us.

Oh, and why does Anakin join the Force, even though he didn't practice the technique? His final act of heroism fulfilled his destiny, reconciling him with his son, Luke, and his "father," the Force. It feels right to have him appear as a Force ghost.

[Helena]

If you payed attention, near the last part of ROTS, it does explain it very well. Enough so that you can use your imagination, or whatever, to work out the rest.

And we do not know if he was the only Jedi in history who managed it. There could have been hundreds that just didn't CONTACT YODA, like QUI-GON did!

Firstly, I haven't seen RotS yet, but I have seen some of Qui-Gon's dialogue and I simply don't believe that it was 'explained well'. Secondly, it's still ridiculous that no one else had ever thought to 'contact' Yoda or another Jedi before. Thirdly, I wasn't even talking about the ghost thing in the first place, but the thing with Jedi's bodies disappearing when they die.

[Richard]

Regardless of the post-death contacty goodness which qui gon learnt, this doesn't explain why yoda and obi wan disappear and qui gon doesn't. I kind of understand and accept the post-death ghost thingie, but not the disappearing corpse thing, which is what seems most inconsistent, unless there is something I missed.

[jariten]

[sarcasm]Oh, of course it is. Because this is totally explained in the movies and everything. And it totally makes sense that Qui-Gon would magically have worked out how to do this, when no other Jedi in history (including those who had lived far longer than Qui-Gon) had done so before him.[/sarcasm] Jesus, even when Lucas has the sense not to bother with the pathetic excuses, there's always some gusher to do it for him.

I couldnt help but notice that the IQ level of this board dropped about 45% while I was away. The only blanks you have to fill in yourself are small, and these detail exactly how did Qui Gon do it? The reason why its not explained is that it does not need to be explained for it to work. I mean, wasnt a lot of the uproar about the midis based on the idea that it demystified the force (which it didnt anyway)? Doesnt this take the inner workings of the force back down that road where things feel slightly opaque and myterious? or would you have prefered a "take two pills a night and absolutly no sex!" kind of explanation?

but wait, I would say all that! because i'm a mindless gusher (even though I took the time to point out a flaw in the system myself, which you conviniently ignored) blah blah etc. etc.

p.s thanks for the 'sarcasm' tags, I never would've figured it out otherwise.

This post has been edited by jariten: 22 May 2005 - 05:49 PM

[floppydisk]

Hey, hey. You're both respected members of this forum, let's not have this degenerate into a flame war. I know you both hate when people flame, and would rather have an intellegent argument instead, so let's be reasonable here, shall we?

[jariten]

Yes, you're right.

Apologies Helena.

[Mnesymone]

On the issue of Jedi corpses vanishing i never really had much of a problem with that - Both Obi-Wan and Yoda died at peace, while when Vader died he died neutral - redeemed from darkness but not renewed to light, so for all he died in peace he didn't vanish - while those Jedi who were killed in battle weren't at peace and so had nasty mortal remains. That was my theory for it anyway - the thing that bugged me was that Maul and Dooku's deaths didn't cause them to detonate as the Emperor did. Dark Side entities were supposed to do that.

[Helena]

I couldnt help but notice that the IQ level of this board dropped about 45% while I was away. The only blanks you have to fill in yourself are small, and these detail exactly how did Qui Gon do it? The reason why its not explained is that it does not need to be explained for it to work. I mean, wasnt a lot of the uproar about the midis based on the idea that it demystified the force (which it didnt anyway)? Doesnt this take the inner workings of the force back down that road where things feel slightly opaque and myterious? or would you have prefered a "take two pills a night and absolutly no sex!" kind of explanation?

but wait, I would say all that! because i'm a mindless gusher (even though I took the time to point out a flaw in the system myself, which you conviniently ignored) blah blah etc. etc.

p.s thanks for the 'sarcasm' tags, I never would've figured it out otherwise.

You're missing the point. I don't give a stuff how the 'Force ghost' thing actually works; the point is that it makes no sense that Qui-Gon would have worked out how to do this when no one else had before. The extent to which the story has come to depend on Qui-Gon, a character who never appeared in the OT and shouldn't even have been in the PT either, is ridiculous. Why the fuck isn't it him teaching Luke in the OT if he's so incredibly wise and all-knowing?

The thing that would need an explanation, which is what we were talking about in the first place (did you even read my post above?), is why some of the Jedi's bodies disappear on their deaths and others' (Qui-Gon's included) do not.To be honest, I really don't care all that much anyway - but if you insist on trying to explain it you'd better come up with a good explanation that's supported by the movies, not just something you dreamed up on the spur of the moment. For heavens' sake, if you can see an obvious flaw in your own explanation, why bother to post it in the first place?

[StarWarsIsUs]

""The reason why its not explained is that it does not need to be explained for it to work. I mean, wasnt a lot of the uproar about the midis based on the idea that it demystified the force (which it didnt anyway)? ""

That's a good point, and totally supports our argument. I wouldn't have thought of that as quick as you did, my friend.

[Richard]

On the issue of Jedi corpses vanishing i never really had much of a problem with that - Both Obi-Wan and Yoda died at peace, while when Vader died he died neutral - redeemed from darkness but not renewed to light, so for all he died in peace he didn't vanish - while those Jedi who were killed in battle weren't at peace and so had nasty mortal remains. That was my theory for it anyway - the thing that bugged me was that Maul and Dooku's deaths didn't cause them to detonate as the Emperor did. Dark Side entities were supposed to do that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Qui Gon died in battle as did Obi Wan, however Qui Gon did not disappear

[Icey]

Master Kenobi was ready to be struck down, Qui Gon was not.

[StarWarsIsUs]

What kind of a signature is that, Icey?

[Richard]

Master Kenobi was ready to be struck down, Qui Gon was not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah yea, that'd make it more logical that is true. My memory fails me, did Qui Gon die instantly? Or was he wounded, then laid there for a while? Either way, yea he could still have been reluctant, not ready to die.

[StarWarsIsUs]

Qui-Gon was wounded, and it was a few minutes before he actually died.

[jariten]

Why does Qui Gon need to teach anything to Luke when clearly instructing Luke (when the time came) is a job that Obi Wan has set aside for himself?

the point is that it makes no sense that Qui-Gon would have worked out how to do this when no one else had before

Why do you find it so hard to buy? The only other way out is to have the Jedi join the force automatically, which would have been a mistake as it wouldve greatly reduced the power (and purpose) of them all being wiped out. If if wasnt Qui Gon, who else could it have been? some EU character from 500 years before TPM, a jedi not even in the films? Or perhaps Yoda could have read it in some book (i actually heard this was the case, thank God its not). sorry, I think its far, far more interesting dramatically to have the focus of this new power be a Jedi we already know and care about.