[Richard]

Hippo, I think people are debating why the sand people decided to take Shmi. People aren't debating why Lucas decided to do it - which was to get Anakin to go crazy and kill them all. That is understood. What isn't understood is what the sand people gained by kidnapping Shmi. It seems like there is no explanation of this from Lucas, and is open to interpretation.

[The Scornful Roman]

Here you are. The discussion above is a direct proof that Lucas had Shmi captured by sand people for no reson at all, or for his fans to speculate what they were doing with her. Would you argue why Vader was after Han Solo in ESB?Or after Leia in ANH? No, the reasons were obvious they were pivotal to the plot. Here, we don't know. Something happens, oh well, because it could

To have something happen for no reason at all is not good story telling.

The whole trick of having the tale told backward not forwardd is that in order to be coherent you need a lot of skill so the seams, patches and holes would not show. There were ways of doing it, but Lucas was simply not up to the task. And the result is mess.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you hit the nail dead on the head, Madame. Lucas had a good thing goin' with Star Wars, but I just don't think that he's the caliber of storyteller to be able to smoothly and flawlessly pull off a trick like making the PT and the OT mesh together neatly. I just don't believe his thing about having it 'all in his head' from the beginning. I think he was making certain details up as he went along, like Chris Carter did with the X-Files, and no matter how great a cast or how good the special effects are, the seams in the plot-lines will show through.

And, heck, I'm a person who liked ROTJ, and who thought ROTS was several cuts above the other two prequels. So I guess I could say that I think GL has done two crappy SW films (the first two prequels), two really, really good ones (ANH and ESB) and two reasonably okay ones (ROTJ and ROTS, with ROTJ being my personal favorite of the two).

Which I guess is not too bad of a track record. Ultimately, though, IMHO, the two trilogies don't connect like they should or even could have, and that is due to the storytelling flaws in the first two prequels.

[Devout Catalyst]

4. Count Dooku. He appreared from nowhere in AOTC and disappeared at the beginning of ROTS. It seems to me that the only reason he was in PT in the first place was because of his ability do deliver unbelievable lines in a deep bellowing voice.

I think the actual reason was for Lucas to pay tribute to Hammer Films, which was the reason Peter Cushing was in the original Star Wars.

I think that is a cool idea, and Christopher Lee makes a great villain as always, but the character of Count Dooku was throwaway. Lucas could've at least written a better part for him.

[Darth_Imhatinit]

now that lucas has established that "the force" is merely a function of how many midichloridians one has in their bloodstream, WTF DOES IT MEAN TO "BALANCE THE FORCE?"

might as well say "the brown haired peoples must be balanced!"

I'm waiting for that moment to be parodied on the internet. I'd love to see it spliced with Howard Dean flipping out.

-Anakin rises from the table-

"YEAAAAAH! YEEEAAAAGGHHHHHH!"

this is one of the funnier things i've read in a long time

YEEEARRGGHHH

[BinarySunset]

(Madam Corvax @ May 24 2005, 01:16 AM)
To have something happen for no reason at all is not good story telling.

The whole trick of having the tale told backward not forwardd is that in order to be coherent you need a lot of skill so the seams, patches and holes would not show. There were ways of doing it, but Lucas was simply not up to the task. And the result is mess.

Thank you, Madam Corvax, you are indeed wise. ITA that GL just doesn't have "the stuff" needed to tell such a vast story. Great ideas? To be sure. He began something that captured our imaginations; but as has been discussed in many other threads, he needs others working with him to bring these ideas to the screen in a way that is "good movie-making". You summed it up beautifully: the result is a mess.

Scornful Roman, I also totally agree with your assessment of Lucas' inability "to smoothly and flawlessly pull off a trick like making the PT and the OT mesh together neatly".

And, heck, I'm a person who liked ROTJ, and who thought ROTS was several cuts above the other two prequels. So I guess I could say that I think GL has done two crappy SW films (the first two prequels), two really, really good ones (ANH and ESB) and two reasonably okay ones (ROTJ and ROTS, with ROTJ being my personal favorite of the two).

Which I guess is not too bad of a track record. Ultimately, though, IMHO, the two trilogies don't connect like they should or even could have, and that is due to the storytelling flaws in the first two prequels.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As they say on another board I frequent: Wordy McWord to the Word!
With the exception of TPM (please don't ask me to talk about it ), I pretty much stack the films up in the same way you do, including ROTJ being reasonably okay and it being a personal favorite in its "category".

[Madam Corvax]

Thank you, BS. I am glad you share my opinion.

I was also pondering another matte.r
I wonder how the odds are that in the next six-DVD edition of SW PT+OT GL will tamper with the OT even more to try to give the story more continuity. As we know, 2003 edition had some horrible adjustments, like the dialogue in ESB between Emperor, where Vader pretends that he does not know "how is it possible" that someone around 20 named Skywalker can be his son.

There are more bits of dialogue which are likely to be "revamped". Here are some examples: ("cunning warrior", "a good friend" and "the best pilot in the galaxy" do not count because Lucas thinks he dealt with in in the first ten minutes of ROTS, but there plenty of others):
-"general Kenobi, you fought for my father in Clone wars" (did Obi-wan fight for Bail Organa????)
"I don't remember ever owning a droid"
"I haven't gone by the name of Obbi-Wan since all before you were born"
- "this place looks familiar" (Luke on Dagobah)
- "Leia, do you remember your mother?"
etc.

I wonder, would it be possible to digitally restore Sir Alec's voice to fit the new bits of dialogue, or it would not be possible? I am sure that if it is technically possible, GL would do it. In the meantime, hold on even to the tempered version of SE from 2003. It may be not available after a while.

[Darth Dick]

How is it Owen does not recognize 3PO in ANH? I know he looks different, but the name, and the mannerisms, the voice..... Nothing? Not one spark of recogition? This droid worked on your farm for awhile, it belonged to your stepmother untill your creepy brother-in-law took it with him. If Owen is so dedicated to make sure Luke knows as little as possible, why would he ever buy the droid his father built? Does not compute. Also, Leah is raised by Bail, a senator who knows first hand about the corruption and evil that lies in pollitics. Is it a good idea that your strong headed daughter, who just so happens to be the daughter of the Empire's head enforcer, is running around, playing freedom fighter? Isn't a confrontation inevitable? Wouldn't Bail have put a stop to this years before? I think politics would be the last feild I would let my daughter get a hand into.

[barend]

yeah, it's all one big collosal fuck up...

but the gushers would have us beleive that it is our job to make excuses for the storyteller...

[Mnesymone]

A poor craftsman blames his tools - a really poor craftsman says his customers have to change their perceptions and take his original vision into account.

Edited for the sake of editing

This post has been edited by Mnesymone: 30 May 2005 - 10:48 PM

[Madam Corvax]

How very true and sad Mnesymone... And even sadder that even some seemingly intelligent people fall for that...

[Devout Catalyst]

As I always say, it is George Lucas's job to impress me, not the other way around. Not just GL, of course, but anyone who creates anything and makes it available for critique.

Georgie Boy would probably counter this with some lame argument about how he's NOT putting it out there for critique. He probably would say that he's putting it out there only for the people who will enjoy it. In other words, only positive opinions register in his mind. Lord knows he is defensive enough in interviews.

The thing is, I don't feel that I, as part of the audience, should have to put a lot of effort into making the plot coherent. A good storyteller/director would make that happen without a hitch. If the plot is supposed to be vague or mysterious or subsidiary to the ambience, a good storyteller/director would convey that as well. It is pretty clear that a Star Wars movie is not the latter kind of movie.

I have increasingly little patience for fanboy mentality. Some people take criticism of George Lucas as some sort of personal affront. I don't get it. I don't think anyone should be immune from being called on their shit.

[andy_k_250]

Thank you, BS. I am glad you share my opinion.

I was also pondering another matte.r
I wonder how the odds are that in the next six-DVD edition of SW PT+OT GL will tamper with the OT even more to try to give the story more continuity. As we know, 2003 edition had some horrible adjustments, like the dialogue in ESB between Emperor, where Vader pretends that he does not know "how is it possible" that someone around 20 named Skywalker can be his son.

There are more bits of dialogue which are likely to be "revamped". Here are some examples: ("cunning warrior", "a good friend"  and "the best pilot in the galaxy" do not count because Lucas thinks he dealt with in in the first ten minutes of ROTS, but there plenty of others):
-"general Kenobi, you fought for my father in Clone wars" (did Obi-wan fight for Bail Organa????)
"I don't remember ever owning a droid"
"I haven't gone by the name of Obbi-Wan since all before you were born"
- "this place looks familiar" (Luke on Dagobah)
- "Leia, do you remember your mother?"
etc.

I wonder, would it be possible to digitally restore Sir Alec's voice to fit the new bits of dialogue, or it would not be possible? I am sure that if it is technically possible, GL would do it. In the meantime, hold on even to the tempered version of SE from 2003. It may be not available after a while.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

- "this place looks familiar" (Luke on Dagobah)

Why does that need to be changed?

[Madam Corvax]

At one point there was a theory that "the place looked familiar" because Luke might have been brought there as a very young child by Yoda. That would be the only explanation of "this place looking familar" line. Why else do you think Luke said that?

[diligent_d]

He probably saw it in future visions.

[Despondent]

No, it was just a setup for the line
"I've got a bad feeling about this."

that line always feels familiar