[Lord Melkor]

The Sith were waiting 1000 years since last war, preparing in Shadows for their revenge! It is logical they created some powerful techniques of deception!

Or maybe it is a battle on cosmic scale between the Force and the Darkside!
In PT, Darkside has initiative, advantage! In OT it is the opposite!

[jariten]

How do you know Palpatine was using the dark side to his own advantage? The truth is, you don't know at all

well this brings me back to what I said earlier about the 'rules' of the force (both dark and light) never being set down. We can argue about this, but we really dont have any firm ground to base things on. So all we have to go off is the dialogue. and with all this talk of "the darkside clouding visions" is strong enough to suggest some interferance by the dark side preventing the Jedi from learning the truth. If Lucas had written it "Sidious is using the dark side to cloud their vision", perhaps that would have been clearer. Another error in Lucas' script perhaps, but as it stands its still strong, and perfectly acceptable enough for me.

[BadKarma]

I have to say SWIU, your multitude of theories and ideas are very impressive and it's cool the way you weave around to get to something that fits in all the films. I honestly think you are grasping to make sense of what you've been shown on screen.
But do you really believe GL has something in his head that explains it all, and he has woven it, oh so subtley, into the PT so we can have long debates about it and his audience is forced to think and imagine? Or do you think he's really just f**ked it up royally and all we can do is try and drag together some remnants of consistency in all this to protect the imaginary world we love? If someone can pull it together and make sense of it then I am all for it, but the more I watch, the more I believe GL just pandered to his accountants, listened to his yes men and produced a disparate mess.

[StarWarsIsUs]

""Another error in Lucas' script perhaps, but as it stands its still strong, and perfectly acceptable enough for me. ""

Every word I use to defend the possibilities, the more I begin liking this part of the PT. I am truly a different Star Wars fan after watching ROTS.

[jariten]

Without a doubt there are inconsistancies and plot holes. I just dont think this issue of dark side clouding etc. is one of them.

[StarWarsIsUs]

I have to say SWIU, your multitude of theories and ideas are very impressive and it's cool the way you weave around to get to something that fits in all the films. I honestly think you are grasping to make sense of what you've been shown on screen.

Thank you.

But do you really believe GL has something in his head that explains it all, and he has woven it, oh so subtley, into the PT so we can have long debates about it and his audience is forced to think and imagine? Or do you think he's really just f**ked it up royally and all we can do is try and drag together some remnants of consistency in all this to protect the imaginary world we love? If someone can pull it together and make sense of it then I am all for it, but the more I watch, the more I believe GL just pandered to his accountants, listened to his yes men and produced a disparate mess.

I believe that he has a concept, like we all do, of what goes on with the force in the PT. And I believe that he does have some other thougths about how the force works. As Jariten said, we are only going by dialogue, pretty much. I go by what I have learned, and what I have concluded. Simply put: I go by what is shown to me on screen, as you suggested. If Lucas does not have the thing worked out into an advanced map, like I am trying to do, then I'm sure someone close to him does, or someone working in the EU part of his franchise.

[BadKarma]

Thank you.

No probs, I'm not quite the jerk I'm making out I am

If Lucas does not have the thing worked out into an advanced map, like I am trying to do, then I'm sure someone close to him does, or someone working in the EU part of his franchise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd like to believe that, and for the OT and then the EU stuff that followed it (especially the Timothy Zahn trilogy) I believe there were very strict rules that had to be followed, but since Episode 1 it's all gone to pieces with every new item bringing up new inconsistencies. It's almost like they hit a point where they were very proud of the SW franchise, everything with the SW name on it was TOP quality. Then one day somebody said, balls to this, we can make tons more money if we compromise everything. I'm not 100% down on GL for this, although at the end of the day he allowed it to happen. Rick McCullum in every interview I saw pre-TPM was obviously NOT a SW fan or even enjoyer of the universe. He just saw $$$ and after that pandering to every money making opportunity became the name of the game (video game sequences placed deliberately into the movies, new characters that specifically make "cool" action figues, etc etc).
Maybe he seduced GL the way the darkside of the force seduced Luke's father?

Sorry, I've gone a bit off topic there.. ummm... errrr... move along!

Edited for quote issues!

This post has been edited by BadKarma: 23 May 2005 - 01:37 PM

[StarWarsIsUs]

I'd like to believe that, and for the OT and then the EU stuff that followed it (especially the Timothy Zahn trilogy) I believe there were very strict rules that had to be followed, but since Episode 1 it's all gone to pieces with every new item bringing up new inconsistencies. It's almost like they hit a point where they were very proud of the SW franchise, everything with the SW name on it was TOP quality. Then one day somebody said, balls to this, we can make tons more money if we compromise everything. I'm not 100% down on GL for this, although at the end of the day he allowed it to happen. Rick McCullum in every interview I saw pre-TPM was obviously NOT a SW fan or even enjoyer of the universe. He just saw $$$ and after that pandering to every money making opportunity became the name of the game (video game sequences placed deliberately into the movies, new characters that specifically make "cool" action figues, etc etc).
Maybe he seduced GL the way the darkside of the force seduced Luke's father?

I read somewhere, that when GL first set out from college, he made a promise to himself, to be different than the other movie makers, and said that he wouldn't be all about the money. Well, this changed shortly after American Graffiti (my guess).
And now, is a power hungry, money devouring king of Hollywood. He became the very thing he swore not to become. Yeah, I guess he is alot like Anakin.

[StarWarsIsUs]

Now. Do any others have anything to say about all that we have discussed so far in this thread?

[littlejerryseinfeld]

Lucas didnt change anything. Again, I dont remember there being an explanation of how the dark side of the Force works in the OT. All we're left with is what is offered to us in TPM and AotC. Again, i'm not making this up, there are numerous references to the dark side having the ability to cloud the jedis vision (I wont repeat them, we all know what they are).

So where is the contradiction, apart from in your own head?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

all we're left with is what is offered to us in TPM and AotC?

WRONG. there is a telling scene in ESB with luke and yoda:

luke: is the dark side stronger?

yoda: no; quicker... more seductive.

there it is. yoda did not say, "well, it can totally cloud your vision." or, "a sith lord can be standing right next to you, and you won't sense him at all..."

so, go back to the OT, re-watch it, then write me a rebuttal.

[Lord Melkor]

Does the fact that Darkside is better at concealing things make it more powerful?

[Deleted Scene]

well this brings me back to what I said earlier about the 'rules' of the force (both dark and light) never being set down. We can argue about this, but we really dont have any firm ground to base things on. So all we have to go off is the dialogue. and with all this talk of "the darkside clouding visions" is strong enough to suggest some interferance by the dark side preventing the Jedi from learning the truth. If Lucas had written it "Sidious is using the dark side to cloud their vision", perhaps that would have been clearer. Another error in Lucas' script perhaps, but as it stands its still strong, and perfectly acceptable enough for me.

My original point, which started all of this, is that the issue of how the dark side clouded the Jedi's vision was never resolved in ROTS. You said it was explained in TPM and AOTC and we've been disagreeing ever since. We've since gone off on how the force works in the OT and such, but to get back to the core matter at hand - at no point in ROTS is it ever explained how Palpatine was able to be right under the nose of the entire council without being detected. While you may feel that "The dark side clouds everything" is a sufficient enough explanation, I say given what we know about the force in the OT and even the PT's, that is an explanation I find to be beyond ridiculous, to say the least.

However, the relevant point is this - whether Palp did it himself or the dark side acts as a natural block, is NEVER touched upon in ROTS. It is never implied or stated one way or another how this occured. We cannot say, without a shadow of a doubt, that Palp did it himself, nor can we say the dark side acted as a natural block for him against the Jedi. We don't know and that's the basis of my core argument, one that has yet to be disproven. Regardless of whether or not you personally accept the explanation given, the fact of the matter is that by the time ROTS ended, the issue of how Palp was masked from the Jedi, remained unresolved.

[Lord Melkor]

Is it so wrong that it is unresolved? The Darkside should be mystical and Sidious clouded in Shadows!

Lucas could explain it with something like Midichlorians, you wouldn`t like it then!

[littlejerryseinfeld]

Does the fact that Darkside is better at concealing things make it more powerful?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

uhhh... YEAH.

get with it, lord melkor.

[StarWarsIsUs]

However, the relevant point is this - whether Palp did it himself or the dark side acts as a natural block, is NEVER touched upon in ROTS.

It is touched upon, just not with dialogue itself. When Palp starts fighting the Jedi, we are probably meant to conclude it was him all along. Just like we were probably meant to conclude that Count Dooku was Sifo-Dias (spelling?), at the end of AOTC.

It is never implied or stated one way or another how this occured.

We don't know 'how'. How is impossible. How doesn't exist. How does he shoot force lightning?!?!? With the force. HOW is completely irrelevant on this subject.

We cannot say, without a shadow of a doubt, that Palp did it himself, nor can we say the dark side acted as a natural block for him against the Jedi.

We were meant to think one way or the other. We are to assume, and think.