[Grand Moff Lebowski]

ROTS stands alone - to the people who said you needed to see the cartoons to understand it - you barely needed to see Ep II and definitely didn't need Ep I - so nuts to them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Roger--Roger!

[jariten]

This shows me you're not someone worth responding to any further, but I will do so at this time because it suits me.

I love it when people respond like this, trying to build up an image of superiority on an internet messageboard is really rather sad. You respond to me because you want to respond to me. its nothing more than that.

Anyway, moving on. Luke can sense Vader in ep6 and Vader can sense Obi in ep4 because of the strong bond they share (father/son in 6 and old master/apprentice dynamic in ep4) this has nothing to do with the darkside clouding anything, which is an intentional act by Palpatine.

The main problem with this discussion is that nowhere are the 'rules' of the force set down, so its hard to pinpoint exactly what has been broken and where. If you're feeling picky enough, you could easily tear any of these films to shreads. 'The Force' is a consistant element in these films though, the PT promotes the darkside as mysterious, evil and powerful, which is exactly what it is.

[Coco]

This is because the Emporer wasn't making a special effort to 'cloud the force', because he thought the Jedi no longer possed a threat. You have to understand, maybe clouding the dark side takes up a lot of energy, and the Emporer, in his ever-old age, no longer had that energy to use, like he did in TPM and AOTC. This is my reasoning. Not saying I really support the idea as a whole, though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If this is the case, then maybe he didn't want to cloud it because he wanted Luke as his apprentice... in ESB, he clearly says "he could destroy us". He knows the threat is still there.

Anyway, I don't think we should get to this point. We shouldn't be saying "maybe this, maybe that". It should have been left clear, at least, that's my opinion.

[BadKarma]

'The Force' is a consistant element in these films though, the PT promotes the darkside as mysterious, evil and powerful, which is exactly what it is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The name 'Force' is consistant. The way it acts and changes is very much not. As for mysterious... is any of the Force mysterious anymore? It's a bunch of nano things in your blood. Sounds very scientific and very unmysterious to me.

[Deleted Scene]

I love it when people respond like this, trying to build up an image of superiority on an internet messageboard is really rather sad. You respond to me because you want to respond to me. its nothing more than that.

I responded to you because it suited me; nothing more than that. What I find sad is a person who makes baseless accusations without justification and then spends every post thereafter doing everything they can to play the victim in an effort to weasel their way out of any wrongdoing while simultaneously trying to paint everyone else as the guilty party. IMO, anyone who does that (online or off) is a pathetic, cowardly and gutless loser. One must first take responsibility for the things they say before they have a right to complain about what is said to them. Moving on...

Anyway, moving on. Luke can sense Vader in ep6 and Vader can sense Obi in ep4 because of the strong bond they share (father/son in 6 and old master/apprentice dynamic in ep4) this has nothing to do with the darkside clouding anything, which is an intentional act by Palpatine.

You're just making crap up at this point kiddo because there's no evidence to support this theory you've come up with. Nowhere in the OT is it ever stated that Luke/Vader and Obi/Vader share stronger force bonds than others because of their respective father/son, teacher/student relationships. Had this "theory" been true, it would reduce the force to being an energy field that only works between people who share a 'connection' which would effectively kill the whole concept of it binding the UNIVERSE together.

As for Palpatine intentionally clouding the light side, up till now, you've been saying that the dark side clouds the light side because that's the way it works. If that's so, then Palpatine wouldn't need to mask himself since he'd have a natural protective barrier against being detected. But if he was masking himself, then the dark side does not inherently cloud the light side by nature and that goes against what you've been arguing all this time.

The main problem with this discussion is that nowhere are the 'rules' of the force set down, so its hard to pinpoint exactly what has been broken and where. If you're feeling picky enough, you could easily tear any of these films to shreads. 'The Force' is a consistant element in these films though, the PT promotes the darkside as mysterious, evil and powerful, which is exactly what it is.

The force was consistent in the OT, but changed for the PT and this much is obvious to anyone paying attention to the films. Hell, in ROTJ, Luke sensed the good in Vader and the Emperor sensed the anger in Luke but in the PT, not one Jedi, not one MASTER on the council could sense Anakin's dark side (and remember, he went on a killing spree in AOTC).

By the same token, in ANH Obi felt an entire planet explode from light years away, but in ROTS, he couldn't even sense his former padawan going evil, but if he's connected to Anakin as you said in your theory above, he should've been able to feel it the moment it happened and surely wouldn't have needed to watch a surveillance video. If you plan on saying Obi watched the video to confirm his suspicions of Anakin, then watch the film again because he did not. He had no idea who committed those acts of murder in the temple. He felt and sensed nothing from his former student. However, if we go by what you've stated above, then Obi should've sensed Anakin's dark side because of the bond they share, but Obi felt nothing which negates your theory of the special teacher/student bond penetrating the dark side cloud.

BadKarma said it very well:

The name 'Force' is consistant. The way it acts and changes is very much not.

[jariten]

but in ROTS, he couldn't even sense his former padawan going evil,

no, but Yoda could. not only in sith, but old yoda could sense it in AotC too. and all the Jedi council detected a dangerous future for the boy in TPM. Isnt it possible that the older Obi Wan got, the more powerful he became?

I still maintain that at no point are the rules of the force set out, and so its hard for me to call foul when I think they've been broken. I also maintain that luke could sense vader and vice versa (same with obi wan and vader) because of their connection. There is something a bit tf.n about this discussion which is kind of depressing.
Im not saying this whole system of the Force is perfect, only that it holds up across the board.

[StarWarsIsUs]

As for Palpatine intentionally clouding the light side, up till now, you've been saying that the dark side clouds the light side because that's the way it works.

I know these statements are aimed only to Jaritan. But...

That is the way it could work. We don't know the science of the light/dark side. We have one angle of the whole thing. Light could cloud out dark, while dark could cloud out light. At any given time. Palpatine made a special EFFORT to use the dark side to CLOUD the light. The Jedi weren't making a special EFFORT to CLOUD ANYTHING. Is this good enough of an answer?

[Despondent]

ROTS stands alone. It was produced so people could ignore OR accept eps 1 and 2 IMHO.

You didn't need to see clones to gasp that R2 can fly. You didn't need to see TPM to think "Anikan really is the best star pilot!"

[Deleted Scene]

no, but Yoda could. not only in sith, but old yoda could sense it in AotC too. and all the Jedi council detected a dangerous future for the boy in TPM.

Correction. Yoda did not sense Anakin's dark side emerging in AOTC. While meditating, Yoda sensed "pain, suffering and death" and heard QGJ yelling "Anakin! Anakin! Nooooo!" (paraphrased) and was able to put the two together. Yoda never sensed Anakin's murderous spree, he even said that Anakin was in terrible pain, not that he feared Anakin was doing something terrible, so that's wrong.

As for Yoda sensing Anakin's evil in ROTS, well, that is beyond me seeing as he shouldn't have been able to since the dark side clouds everything. Isn't that what you've been arguing all this time, that the Jedi couldn't sense anything because the dark side clouds their vision? So how exactly was Yoda able to sense Anakin going evil in ROTS? If we go by your theory that Obi/Vader share a stronger connection because they're teacher/student, then why didn't Obi sense Anakin's evil? Yoda and Anakin never shared a teacher/student relationship because Anakin was trained by Obi his whole padawan life. So in (your) theory, it should've been Obi, not Yoda, who sensed Anakin's evil turn in ROTS.

As for the Jedi council sensing Anakin's "dark future" in TPM, well, if we go by what you're arguing, then they never should've been able to as Anakin's future was a dark one and thus, undetectable to the light side. It doesn't make sense that they were able to detect a dark future for the boy in TPM and couldn't sense anything the older and closer he got to the dark side. GL just wanted to foreshadow Anakin's "dark days" in the first film and then keep everyone in the dark in the last two films, but in doing so, he completely fucked up how the force works.

Isnt it possible that the older Obi Wan got, the more powerful he became?

Why would Obi need to get more powerful in the force in order to sense Vader when, according to you, his special teacher/student relationship with him is able to penetrate the dark side barrier? That is quite contradictory.

I still maintain that at no point are the rules of the force set out, and so its hard for me to call foul when I think they've been broken. I also maintain that luke could sense vader and vice versa (same with obi wan and vader) because of their connection. There is something a bit tf.n about this discussion which is kind of depressing.
Im not saying this whole system of the Force is perfect, only that it holds up across the board.

On one hand you've been arguing that the dark side clouds everything and the Obi/Anakin-teacher/student relationship was the reason they were able to sense each other in ANH, and yet, you've also argued that Yoda could sense Anakin's evil turn even though they never shared that kind of bond. And then, even though according to you, Obi/Anakin share a special bond, you speculate that the reason Obi couldn't sense Anakin's evil turn was because he wasn't powerful enough, but you believe this bond grew stronger in the 19 or so years they were estranged from each other. You have severely contradicted yourself here.

The way the force works only holds up across the board if you blindly accept the changes made to it. If you use logic, you'll see that it not only lacks consistency from the OT to the PT, but from one PT film to the other. The force is not a spiritual entity in the SW saga anymore, it's a plot device used by Lucas which allows him to create contrived dramatic situations, scenes and events. If the force serves any purpose anymore, it's to serve his plothole filled screenplays.

That is the way it could work. We don't know the science of the light/dark side. We have one angle of the whole thing. Light could cloud out dark, while dark could cloud out light. At any given time. Palpatine made a special EFFORT to use the dark side to CLOUD the light. The Jedi weren't making a special EFFORT to CLOUD ANYTHING. Is this good enough of an answer?

If the dark side naturally blocks the light side, then no Jedi should ever be able to see, sense, read or detect anything from it without deep meditation, and even then there's no guarantee of breaking through. However, it Palpatine needed to mask himself, then the dark side does not inherently cloud the light side by nature and that goes against what jariten's been arguing all this time.

Remember in AOTC, after Obi got captured on Geonosis, he talked with Dooku and didn't sense the dark side in him, and Obi even seem to semi-believe it when Dooku said he would petition to get his release. The only reason Obi called Dooku a traitor was because he had spied and overheard his conversation with the separatist, not because he sensed any evil. So was Dooku masking himself and his true intentions or was the dark side clouding Obi's vision/senses? If the dark side naturally clouds the light side, then we're back to square one - no Jedi should be able to sense anything from it at all, but if Dooku was masking himself, then the dark side does not inherently cloud the light side. What kind of Sith masks themselves when they have a natural barier to do it for them?

Any way you look at it, whether Palpatine or Dooku were masking themselves or whether it was a natural effect of the dark side, the issue was never explained or resolved in ROTS and that was my original point.

This post has been edited by Deleted Scene: 23 May 2005 - 10:52 AM

[StarWarsIsUs]

""Correction. Yoda did not sense Anakin's dark side emerging in AOTC. ""

He sensed his dark side emerging, in TPM. Yoda knew that Anakin probably would turn to the darkside, eventually, because of all the fear the boy had in him.

[jariten]

On one hand you've been arguing that the dark side clouds everything and the Obi/Anakin-teacher/student relationship was the reason they were able to sense each other in ANH, and yet, you've also argued that Yoda could sense Anakin's evil turn even though they never shared that kind of bond

You're getting confused, theres two different issues here. There is a difference between detecting disturbances in the force (or whatever you want to call them) created by a good person doing questionable things, and being unable to detect a sith who is using the dark side of the force to 'cloud' the jedis vision and keep his identity a secret (which is a facet of the dark side mentioned in both ep 1 and 2).

As for Yoda sensing Anakin's evil in ROTS, well, that is beyond me seeing as he shouldn't have been able to since the dark side clouds everything. Isn't that what you've been arguing all this time, that the Jedi couldn't sense anything because the dark side clouds their vision?

All i've been arguing is why the jedi cant sense that Palpatine is a sith. Thats all you need to know to understand it. I dont think that the dark side is some sentient being with a will of its own, only that Palpatine was using it to his own advantage. Although now that I think about it, all they said was that Anakins future was "clouded" and "uncertain".

What kind of Sith masks themselves when they have a natural barier to do it for them?

I see what you're saying, but doesnt this add weight to the idea that the sith can intentioanlly mask their true intentions through the dark side? It does add an extra level of threat and mystery to their characters, which is all about subterfuge and deception anyway.

[StarWarsIsUs]

If the dark side naturally blocks the light side, then no Jedi should ever be able to see, sense, read or detect anything from it without deep meditation, and even then there's no guarantee of breaking through. However, it Palpatine needed to mask himself, then the dark side does not inherently cloud the light side by nature and that goes against what jariten's been arguing all this time.

I didn't say only the dark side could naturally block. The lightside, if there are enough Jedi with intent to make an effort to cloud it, could make it cloud the darkside. I'm not saying it is necessarily natural. It can to do with balance.

More Sith (or darkside users) = Stronger Light Side

More Jedi = Stronger Dark Side

Without the correct balance, it tips the scales, and makes it the opposite of what we would think it should be. The force apparently works that way. There was more Jedi during the PT than darksiders, so the scales went towards the darkside being stronger.

Remember in AOTC, after Obi got captured on Geonosis, he talked with Dooku and didn't sense the dark side in him, and Obi even seem to semi-believe it when Dooku said he would petition to get his release. The only reason Obi called Dooku a traitor was because he had spied and overheard his conversation with the separatist, not because he sensed any evil. So was Dooku masking himself and his true intentions or was the dark side clouding Obi's vision/senses? If the dark side naturally clouds the light side, then we're back to square one - no Jedi should be able to sense anything from it at all, but if Dooku was masking himself, then the dark side does not inherently cloud the light side. What kind of Sith masks themselves when they have a natural barier to do it for them?

Yes, I remember this part. My theory of the tipping of scales could still stand, if you do not like the idea of him masking himself. Or you could even go as far as to say that PALPATINE was masking Count Dooku, so that Count Dooku did not have to make the effort. Remember, that Count Dooku was trying to get Obi-Wan to join him, and he was on the darkside of the force. But to make it more appealing and so it didn't feel so evil, maybe Palpatine stepped in and helped him. Or... it could be naturally... with my scale theory.

[Deleted Scene]

He sensed his dark side emerging, in TPM. Yoda knew that Anakin probably would turn to the darkside, eventually, because of all the fear the boy had in him.

Anakin was just a kid with a so-called "clouded" future in TPM whom the council deemed dangerous. He did not have a "dark side" and when he did get one, it didn't emerge until he was a teenager in AOTC.

You're getting confused, theres two different issues here. There is a difference between detecting disturbances in the force (or whatever you want to call them) created by a good person doing questionable things, and being unable to detect a sith who is using the dark side of the force to 'cloud' the jedis vision and keep his identity a secret (which is a facet of the dark side mentioned in both ep 1 and 2).

In response to your theory of Obi/Vader sharing a connection which allowed them to sense each other, I said:

in ROTS, he (OWK) couldn't even sense his former padawan going evil,

And you replied with:

no, but Yoda could. not only in sith, but old yoda could sense it in AotC too. and all the Jedi council detected a dangerous future for the boy in TPM.

If anyone's confused here son, it's you because you used something that had no relevance (Yoda sensing Anakin's evil) to counter a rebuttal I made (Obi couldn't sense Anakin's evil) to your original theory (Obi/Vader share a special bond that allows them to sense each other). I have no idea why you brought up Yoda or the council to make your case because doing so actually hurt your argument, regardless, you're the one who deviated off the main point, not me.

All i've been arguing is why the jedi cant sense that Palpatine is a sith. Thats all you need to know to understand it. I dont think that the dark side is some sentient being with a will of its own, only that Palpatine was using it to his own advantage.

How do you know Palpatine was using the dark side to his own advantage? The truth is, you don't know at all. It's never stated in ROTS that he masked himself from the Jedi. You're assuming he did, but that's nothing more than an assumption on your part, not a fact. You seem to have taken "The dark side clouds everything" and created your own outcome that Palp did this and that, when in reality, it's never stated one way or another whether the dark side clouds naturally or whether Palp was that powerful a sith lord. And since the how is never fully stated or implied, the plotline remains unresolved which was my original point. We can go back and forth all day going "why did this" or "how come that", but in the end, the issue of how Palp went undetected by the Jedi was never resolved. That's what I've been arguing all this time and what you've been unsuccessfully trying to counter.

I see what you're saying, but doesnt this add weight to the idea that the sith can intentioanlly mask their true intentions through the dark side? It does add an extra level of threat and mystery to their characters, which is all about subterfuge and deception anyway.

It's contrivance and illogical with what's previsouly been established. If the Sith can mask their true intentions, thoughts, actions, etc, by using the dark side, then many scenes in the OT don't make sense anymore, for that matter, neither do some in the PT.


StarWarsIsUs - Your scale theory is all specualtion and my original point was that ROTS didn't resolve the plotline of how the dark side clouded the Jedi's vision. I'm not interested in guessing how and why Palp could stand right in front of the two strongest Jedi Masters in Yoda and Mace Windu and not be sensed or detected. With something as important as that, Lucas needed to state how that was possible and he didn't.

This post has been edited by Deleted Scene: 23 May 2005 - 12:37 PM

[Kirjava]

I didn't say only the dark side could naturally block. The lightside, if there are enough Jedi with intent to make an effort to cloud it, could make it cloud the darkside. I'm not saying it is necessarily natural. It can to do with balance.

More Sith (or darkside users) = Stronger Light Side

More Jedi = Stronger Dark Side

Without the correct balance, it tips the scales, and makes it the opposite of what we would think it should be. The force apparently works that way. There was more Jedi during the PT than darksiders, so the scales went towards the darkside being stronger.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That might make sense at face value, but if more Jedi meant a stronger Dark Side, why in the world would Yoda be training over a dozen kids to use the Force in AoTC? It's like loading a leaky canoe with heavy boxes. No one in their right mind would do that, and even if Yoda had his mind "clouded", he's old enough to know the basic workings of the Force. If few Jedi= strong Light Side, there'd only ever be about two Jedis at a time, because any more than that would just make the Dark Side stronger, defeating the purpose of having Jedis to begin with.

The Dark Side being able to cloud the minds of Jedis seems to give the Dark Side a completely unfair and pointless advantage. Not pointless to them, of course, but pointless to the Jedi who have, as far as we know, no such power. The way I see it, the Dark Side and the Light Side are approximately equal, both with the potential to contain the same amount of energy. I can see scales tipping in one way or another to a degree, depending on who was on each side, but to tip to such a degree that Jedis are open books and hopelessly foolable and Sith lords can not be read by dozens of powerful Jedis living in close quarters? That's just nonsensical.

I realise your argument was that the Light Side could do the same thing if the positions were reversed, but for the power of the few to be able to completely cloud and block the powers of the many seems to be a very stupid quality for the Force to have. It would be an encouragement to not even try hard to master the Force, because it's naturally going to screw you over if you get enough power or enough followers. You either have a couple Jedi against a massive army of Sith and are hopelessly outnumbered, or you have a lot of Jedi against a small number of Sith and your mind is clouded so you can't use the Force well. Obviously being in either position has its advantages (if you have few on your side the Force is tipped in your favour, and if you have many on your side you can make an attempt to overwhelm the minority), but that's just one thing that makes it even more silly, at least in my eyes. The force tipping in either way is supposed to give one side an advantage, not both a basically equal one.

Even if this mind clouding meshes with what's in Episodes I and II, where does it mesh with Episodes IV, V, and VI?

I'm not posing this as a challenge, but rather as a question. My Star Wars knowledge certainly isn't up to snuff, but I feel I know enough as a semi-intelligent human being to feel like some of these things don't add up in the average viewer's mind. I probably didn't explain myself as well as I would have liked, but if someone can trudge through my post enough to explain where my logic has been badly flawed, I'd appreciate it.

[StarWarsIsUs]

That might make sense at face value, but if more Jedi meant a stronger Dark Side, why in the world would Yoda be training over a dozen kids to use the Force in AoTC? It's like loading a leaky canoe with heavy boxes. No one in their right mind would do that, and even if Yoda had his mind "clouded", he's old enough to know the basic workings of the Force. If few Jedi= strong Light Side, there'd only ever be about two Jedis at a time, because any more than that would just make the Dark Side stronger, defeating the purpose of having Jedis to begin with.

That is a great point, and it almost totally wipes out my scale theory. BUT, maybe Yoda doesn't know the extreme basics. And perhaps it did not matter to him, even if he did know of this. Understand, that his perception, is that the Sith are no longer truly a threat, and the only reason he is training more youngling Jedi, are to make more warriors to fight for the Republic.

The Dark Side being able to cloud the minds of Jedis seems to give the Dark Side a completely unfair and pointless advantage. Not pointless to them, of course, but pointless to the Jedi who have, as far as we know, no such power. The way I see it, the Dark Side and the Light Side are approximately equal, both with the potential to contain the same amount of energy. I can see scales tipping in one way or another to a degree, depending on who was on each side, but to tip to such a degree that Jedis are open books and hopelessly foolable and Sith lords can not be read by dozens of powerful Jedis living in close quarters? That's just nonsensical.

That brings up my oldest theory, which was stated earlier, before the scale one. Mace/Yoda/ etc. , when sensing that the darkside was clouding all, did not say: "Lets use the LightSide of the Force to cloud the DarkSide, so that the darkside won't be as strong!" Jedi apparently do not counter-attack with force ability in such a way. They weren't making a special effort to UNCLOUD the darkside. We can assume by this, that it is against the Jedi way, to use the force to cloud and block out other's minds. The very stretch of this would be Jedi mindtrick, which is NOT the same concept of what I am talking about, and I do not want people bringing it up. Jedi Mind trick does not equal clouding the force so the minds of other force-users can be blocked. Palpatine was the only one (given that clouding is a darkside weapon), clouding the force with the darkside. And the Jedi, because of their moral standards, would not undo it.

That is my older theory, of clouding morals, more elaborated and explained.

I realise your argument was that the Light Side could do the same thing if the positions were reversed, but for the power of the few to be able to completely cloud and block the powers of the many seems to be a very stupid quality for the Force to have. It would be an encouragement to not even try hard to master the Force, because it's naturally going to screw you over if you get enough power or enough followers. You either have a couple Jedi against a massive army of Sith and are hopelessly outnumbered, or you have a lot of Jedi against a small number of Sith and your mind is clouded so you can't use the Force well. Obviously being in either position has its advantages (if you have few on your side the Force is tipped in your favour, and if you have many on your side you can make an attempt to overwhelm the minority), but that's just one thing that makes it even more silly, at least in my eyes. The force tipping in either way is supposed to give one side an advantage, not both a basically equal one.

Yes, that is another huge blow to the other theory. I cannot argue against this.

The part where you state that the lightside could technically do the same as the darkside was doing in the PT, goes back to my other theory I stated above,which is the theory of force clouding morals.

Even if this mind clouding meshes with what's in Episodes I and II, where does it mesh with Episodes IV, V, and VI?

This is where the force was balanced. 2 jedi. 2 sith. Palpatine was old, and deformed, and weakened, and no longer needed to cloud the force. Darth Vader, probably didn't care, or probably left it to his master.

This post has been edited by StarWarsIsUs: 23 May 2005 - 01:10 PM