[jariten]

oh boy (thats a Jar Jar line).

I'm still waiting to find out why "the darkside of the force has clouded their vision" and "the dark side clouds everything" etc. arnt acceptable.

Yes theres flaws with these things, but not here.

If you think I don't have an argument, then I know you haven't been reading my posts. Your slurping of Lucas has blinded you to my points.

yes yes very funny, but the problem is that you dont have any points. again, you didnt explain why what Dooku said was enough for you, or what you would consider to be adaquate or anything. All people seem to be able to do is say "give me a break" and post a rolls_eyes smilie.

Which has nothing to do with my original statement which you've failed to counter in any way - the dark side clouding the Jedi's vision is never fully explained.

ok, now I know you're being difficult on purpose! I was countering your question about why Palpatine didnt kill all the jedi in their sleep ( )

Point is, how could Mace sense an entire plot to destroy the Jedi if the dark side was clouding the Jedi's vision?

I said this before, but here we are again- they know the sith exist. what else would they be up to?!

[Deleted Scene]

I'm still waiting to find out why "the darkside of the force has clouded their vision" and "the dark side clouds everything" etc. arnt acceptable.

Yes theres flaws with these things, but not here.

If you choose not to see any flaws, so be it.

yes yes very funny, but the problem is that you dont have any points. again, you didnt explain why what Dooku said was enough for you, or what you would consider to be adaquate or anything. All people seem to be able to do is say "give me a break" and post a rolls_eyes smilie.

Ad all you seem to be able to say is, "It's a fantasy movie, accept everything" which was a piss poor excuse of a rebuttal to my original point. The ball's in your court, not mine.

ok, now I know you're being difficult on purpose! I was countering your question about why Palpatine didnt kill all the jedi in their sleep ( )

Yeah, but you used stupidity to do it. I'm not wasting my time on someone who comes up with nonsensical crap like what you posted. Hence my response. If you want a serious reply, make a serious post.

I said this before, but here we are again- they know the sith exist. what else would they be up to?!

I truly have no idea what you're arguing anymore.

If you're saying the Jedi knew Palp was a sith lord, then you have no idea what you're talking about. The moment Anakin, whom they did not trust, told Mace that Palp was the sith they were looking for, Mace went to have Palp arrested. The Jedi did not even suspect Palp of being a sith prior to that, they only thought he was some sort of underhanded politician.

[jariten]

whats the point of the attitude? kids today, I dont know...

The jedi didnt know that palpatine was a sith, but they knew a sith existed, hence they knew of a plot to destroy the Jedi. and I wrote "what else would they be up to?!" incase anyone was thinking of "how would they know that".

If you choose not to see any flaws, so be it.

Listen, im being (semi) serious here. I dont know why you have a problem with Dookus explanation of why the jedi couldnt sense Palpatine. So far you've avoided answering that simple question every time. All you can say is "if you cant see it, im not explaining it" which leads me to believe that you have nothing. I really do want to know why though. This has been brought up a few times before, but its never been sucessfully explained.

Ad all you seem to be able to say is, "It's a fantasy movie, accept everything" which was a piss poor excuse of a rebuttal to my original point. The ball's in your court, not mine.

No, I back my point (that the reason why the jedi cant sense Palpatine is explained in the films) with actual dialogue from the films.

If you arent interested in answering my questions, thats ok, but whats the point in posting otherwise? I dont want to argue with you, I just want to find out why you think the way you do about these things.

This post has been edited by jariten: 21 May 2005 - 03:18 AM

[Renegade]

nope... not even slightly...

but they adress the virgin birth, but most people were to dumb to get it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is open to interpretation since its not clearly stated, and since its not, im gonna take the side that palp isn't his dad cause i personally think thats bullshit and lame. Even though its prolly true, its up to me to interpret the movie how i like.

[Deleted Scene]

whats the point of the attitude? kids today, I dont know...

I've also been wondering why you insist on being stupid, but like you said, kids today.

The jedi didnt know that palpatine was a sith, but they knew a sith existed, hence they knew of a plot to destroy the Jedi. and I wrote "what else would they be up to?!" incase anyone was thinking of "how would they know that".

Now we're arguing other plotholes in the film when originally the point was about the Jedi being clouded by the dark side without any explanation given. I stated it was never fully resolved and you came in here saying the explanation given in AotC was sufficient enough and we've been disagreeing since. Now, in what appears to be your usual "post without any evidence manner", you said I have no points to back myself up, which confirms to me that you didn't read or understand my earlier posts.

To make your asinine points, you started off by giving one of the worst reasons anyone can give for anything ("but why would it need to be explained? and in fact, considering we are dealing with a fantasy universe with fantasy concepts that don’t exist, how could it be explained at all?"), and you coupled that by trying to label me as someone who hated or simply refused to give the films a chance when you made these two statements ("Dookus explanation was fine for everyone except the ones who made it their business to hate these things") and ("as it stands, the dialogue in AotC explains it for everyone except those who don’t want it explained, and who want to hate these films"). So rather than make concrete points, you chose, on your own volition, to make assumptions and accusations which says a lot about your character and your evidence.

But let's get back on topic here and address the insipid reasoning you came up with, which in a nutshell is "It's a fantasy. It doesn’t warrant explanation." That is one of the most asinine reasons anyone can ever give regarding any form of storytelling, whether it's films, literature, television or comics. Star Wars, like the best tales, has a set of rules it has set for itself and follows. Most people, myself included, usually ask for only one only one thing from any writer/creator of a world such as this one - consistency. Personally I don't have a problem when the rules we thought we knew are expanded upon, but I hate it when they're blatantly ignored or conveniently changed just to suit a plot point.

We all know that GL has changed the backstory of SW. What he established in the OT has been pretty much obliterated by the PT's. Everything from Obi-Wan's lack of interaction and history with Owen to Padme's death have severely fucked up the backstory provided by the OT, and to accommodate these new changes, GL has rewritten everything along the way. Gone is the story of OWK taking Anakin away from the farm, now replaced by QGJ freeing a slave with a high midichlorian count. Gone is the arrogant OWK who messed up Anakin's training because he thought he could do it "just as well as Yoda", now replaced by an OWK who took over Ani's training as a promise to QGJ. Gone is Leia's memory of her real mother, now replaced with an unfortunate Leia remembering what she thought was her mom, but in reality was her first adoptive mom. Gone is the force as a spiritual entity of belief, now replaced with the scientific midichlorians, which can be manipulated to create life. All of those things were changed to suit the new plot of the PT. Yes, those are story elements and not rules, but the rules had to be changed first so that the new story could occur.

In the OT, there's never a hint that Jedi weren't allowed to love or marry, hell, both Luke and Leia marry in the EU and that had GL's blessing. Ah, but to show Anakin more conflicted, to suit the new plot, GL had to change this. Now, all of a sudden, it's forbidden for a Jedi to know anything about love. The rule of Jedi's being in relationships had to be changed to suit the new story. This made it easier and convenient for GL, but it's also contrived.

The same thing applies to the PT. GL was faced with a plot dilemma - how can Palpatine be a Sith lord right in front of the Jedi and they're unable to detect him even though the force has been shown as a power that allows its users to read minds, alter perceptions and even actions. Simple, make it so the dark side clouds EVERYTHING, including Palp’s thoughts, feelings, etc. That is complete bullshit and was only implemented because it served a plot purpose. It allowed GL to easily get around the fact that there's no logical way the Jedi would not be able to sense Palp. To be logical would've required GL to actually write something that made sense and we all know he's well beyond that point now.

Obi's explanation of the force in ANH:

"The force is what gives the Jedi its power. It's an energy field created by all living things, it surrounds us, penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together."

Like I said before, the dark side is still apart of the greater force, hence the term, dark side OF THE FORCE. So why the Jedi are unable to sense anything about the negative side of a force they routinely tap into needs to be explained in detail. To say the force, which is created by ALL LIVING THINGS in the universe, can be clouded by its negative side is nonsense. If the Sith were dead (like Zombies) and the dark side was not connected to the force in any way, then it would make a hell of a lot of sense why the Jedi's vision was clouded as the force is created and bound by LIVING things, not dead. But to have the Jedi conveniently unable to sense anything at all because the dark side clouds everything is crap and only an idiot would accept that blindly imo.

Listen, im being (semi) serious here. I dont know why you have a problem with Dookus explanation of why the jedi couldnt sense Palpatine. So far you've avoided answering that simple question every time. All you can say is "if you cant see it, im not explaining it" which leads me to believe that you have nothing. I really do want to know why though. This has been brought up a few times before, but its never been sucessfully explained.

I have explained myself previously and again in this very post (above), but I'm sure you'll choose not to see it.

No, I back my point (that the reason why the jedi cant sense Palpatine is explained in the films) with actual dialogue from the films.

Are you talking about this one little line you posted?:

"the darkside of the force has clouded their vision my friend..."

You call that backing up your point? If so, then that's priceless.

If you arent interested in answering my questions, thats ok, but whats the point in posting otherwise? I dont want to argue with you, I just want to find out why you think the way you do about these things.

I answered your question earlier and right afterwards you posted this:

No, only if you dismiss perfectly feasible explanations. There are plenty of flaws in these films, but this just isnt one of them. Again, you havnt explained exactly what would make you happy with this.

Which again proved to me that you weren't reading anything I wrote. I put it out there for you to read and you chose to disregard it. There's nothing more I can do.

And it is you who are not interested in having any sort of sensible dialogue. When I said RotS didn't resolve every plotline, you feebly responded with posts trying to use Boss Nass as an example and then eventually said your comments about him weren't to be taken seriously. Which made me wonder why you were defending the point at all if you weren't serious about it. You chose to argue with me the issue of unresolved plotlines that RotS failed to address and you used Boss Nass as an example, but Nass in RotS wasn't a wrap-up, he was a link, a visual one at that, back to TPM. There was nothing unresolved; no lingering threads or holdover issues with him. His story began and ended with TPM. His visual cameo neither added nor subtracted anything to the film, the plot or his particular character. He had no arc of any kind. Had he not made an appearance in Ep3, we the audience never would've wondered what happened to him, so the question becomes, what was/is your point if you weren't serious? Seems to me like you either have no idea what you’re talking about, or you enjoy wasting the time of people on the board instead of actually engaging in any sort of discussion. I am not the former and have no interest in being the latter.

This post has been edited by Deleted Scene: 21 May 2005 - 09:55 AM

[jariten]

Im sick of this. You're taking my quotes and using them out of context, but at least you finally made an attempt at answering my question.

The problem is that you are using your own assesment of what the Force is to critisice what Lucas put in screen.

"It's a fantasy. It doesn’t warrant explanation."

Listen, it warrents only as much explanation as is needed, there is no reason why we should be given more than the numerous references to the ability the darkside has to cloud the jedis vision. If it is stated, it becomes a fact, and frankly it makes no difference if that contradicts whatever ideas about the Force you have in your own head.

The fact is that the darkside has the power to cloud the Jedis vision because the films state that it is so.

Its in TPM and in AotC. Honestly, noone watching these films would have a problem with this.

any further explanation would be pointless exposition (and god knows theres some of that in the PT already), and in fact keeping it minimal helps add weight to this mysterious, dark power that the sith possess.

Not only did you waste your time with that massive, pointless tangent, you also seem to think you can secure an insult by resorting to personal insults

whatever, i've stated the facts of the films quite clearly, you can choose to ignore them as you wish.

[civilian_number_two]

You're both right. That the Sith have the ability to cloud all Jedi's minds is mentioned, so they say, in AOTC. This explanation, then, is given. It's as good as racially Force-proof species and slaves with bombs in their heads. It's not there because it makes for a good story; it's there to service the plot. I think, Jariten, you need to consider how often in these prequel discussions it comes back to this: Lucas wrote a lousy story, and his plot is a series of contrived action scenes held together with tape. What was the story behind that pod race again? I know it involved no money, need repairs, nothing to trade, force-proof species, no way to make money, and slaves with bombs in their heads, one of whom is good at pod racing. It's a convoluted mess.

[jariten]

It's a convoluted mess.

Its a convoluted, enjoyable mess

Lucas wrote a lousy story, and his plot is a series of contrived action scenes held together with tape

Are you talking about the PT or the OT?

This post has been edited by jariten: 21 May 2005 - 11:17 AM

[Deleted Scene]

Im sick of this. You're taking my quotes and using them out of context, but at least you finally made an attempt at answering my question.

Correction#1. I used your quotes precisely in the manner and tone you made them to me.

Correction #2. I answered your question a few posts ago, but in your haste to be the Jar Jar Binks of this forum, you clumsily stepped over it.

The problem is that you are using your own assesment of what the Force is to critisice what Lucas put in screen.

Wrong. Lucas has changed how the force works as a convenient plot device. If he had said the dark and light sides of the force cancel out each other out, it'd at least make sense from a logical POV, though it still would go against what's been established in the OT. No, the dark side can read and sense the light side just fine, but the light side can be "blocked" by the dark side? How? Why? Why can one side sense the other but not vice versa? It doesn't make any sense at all and if you weren't so busy bending over for GL, you'd see the obviousness of his incredibly illogical and contrived story.

Listen, it warrents only as much explanation as is needed, there is no reason why we should be given more than the numerous references to the ability the darkside has to cloud the jedis vision. If it is stated, it becomes a fact, and frankly it makes no difference if that contradicts whatever ideas about the Force you have in your own head.

The fact is that the darkside has the power to cloud the Jedis vision because the films state that it is so.

Its in TPM and in AotC. Honestly, noone watching these films would have a problem with this.

any further explanation would be pointless exposition (and god knows theres some of that in the PT already), and in fact keeping it minimal helps add weight to this mysterious, dark power that the sith possess.

In other words, accept whatever GL says blindly without explanation or logic even if it contradicts what he's put on screen previously. Yes, I know you're a Lucas fanboy who will defend whatever he doles out with "It is, because GL says it is" responses, but there are those of us who would actually like SW to make some sort of sense again.

Not only did you waste your time with that massive, pointless tangent, you also seem to think you can secure an insult by resorting to personal insults 

My post was logical, concise and something you weren't able to answer. Secondly, I'm not the one who was insulting kiddo. You are the party who, rather than use any sort of logic or civility in your rebuttals, chose to resort making unfounded accusations about me with no evidence to backup your claim. I've been a SW fan longer than you've been alive but because I criticized ROTS, you labeled me someone who just wanted to hate the films. Go back and read your posts before you start crying foul like a little girl who got dumped at the school dance.

whatever, i've stated the facts of the films quite clearly, you can choose to ignore them as you wish.

ROTFL!

All you've done is state what the film told us and I've shown you why that makes no sense. It's not my fault you wish to stay in denial about it. If you want to love ROTS, fine by me, I ain't got a problem with that at all, but don't rebuttal my posts with nonsense and accuse me of being a hater. You want to have a civil discussion, I can do that, but if you want to be stupid, I can treat you that way too.

[jariten]

"could it be i'm falling in lurrve..."

OK, time out! I doubt anyone wants to read this tiresome back and forth any longer, so lets drop it. but you did take my quotes out of context, you did insult me pointlessly, you answered my questions with a 4 year olds "well if you dont know, I wont tell you!" response, and you totally misinterpreted what I said anyway. 8 out of 10 for effort though.

[Deleted Scene]

"Talk's cheap bub, drag out your evidence and let's dance!"

OK, time out! I doubt anyone wants to read this tiresome back and forth any longer, so lets drop it. but you did take my quotes out of context, you did insult me pointlessly, you answered my questions with a 4 year olds "well if you dont know, I wont tell you!" response, and you totally misinterpreted what I said anyway. 8 out of 10 for effort though.

I used your quotes precisely in the context in which you made them and no amount of backtracking from you will change that fact. I didn't insult you pointlessly seeing as how you insulted me first with baseless accusations and if you refuse to take reponsibility for your words, then that tells me all I need to know about your character, or rather, lack thereof. Hell, even after I answered your questions, you accused me of not answering it and having no points with which to back-up my claim. I've received nothing but stupidity from you for my troubles and if you feel I treated you like a child, it's because you behaved like one. When you start posting like an adult, I'll be more than happy to engage in a civil discussion with you about the lunacy of GL's plot devices, until such time, happy slurping.

[jariten]

I'm going to try to tackle you on your points, and ignore the other weak insults, baiting and outright lying (I'm sure it makes you feel better about yourself, but those are your own demons to tackle)

Wrong. Lucas has changed how the force works as a convenient plot device. If he had said the dark and light sides of the force cancel out each other out, it'd at least make sense from a logical POV, though it still would go against what's been established in the OT. No, the dark side can read and sense the light side just fine, but the light side can be "blocked" by the dark side? How? Why? Why can one side sense the other but not vice versa? It doesn't make any sense at all and if you weren't so busy bending over for GL, you'd see the obviousness of his incredibly illogical and contrived story.

Lucas didnt change anything. Again, I dont remember there being an explanation of how the dark side of the Force works in the OT. All we're left with is what is offered to us in TPM and AotC. Again, i'm not making this up, there are numerous references to the dark side having the ability to cloud the jedis vision (I wont repeat them, we all know what they are).

So where is the contradiction, apart from in your own head?

I still dont understand how this is any harder to grasp, or accept, than Obi Wans gibberish about energy fields in ep4.

why dont we just start with this, then go on from there.

This post has been edited by jariten: 22 May 2005 - 09:52 AM

[StarWarsIsUs]

Lucas didnt change anything. Again, I dont remember there being an explanation of how the dark side of the Force works in the OT. All we're left with is what is offered to us in TPM and AotC. Again, i'm not making this up, there are numerous references to the dark side having the ability to cloud the jedis vision (I wont repeat them, we all know what they are).

I don't recall any anything in the OT that refers to the darkside clouding Jedi's vision. And while I love ROTS, and now support Lucas more than I did before seeing it, I have to say that I think Lucas did change alot of the things from the other two movies. On purpose. To make it more enjoyable, and so he wouldn't get even MORE people hating him.

[Deleted Scene]

I'm going to try to tackle you on your points, and ignore the other weak insults, baiting and outright lying (I'm sure it makes you feel better about yourself, but those are your own demons to tackle)

Ah, I see you've now resorted to playing the victim in an effort to weasel your way out of any wrongdoing while simultaneously trying to paint me as the bad guy. That is a gutless and cowardly act on your part. This shows me you're not someone worth responding to any further, but I will do so at this time because it suits me.

Lucas didnt change anything. Again, I dont remember there being an explanation of how the dark side of the Force works in the OT. All we're left with is what is offered to us in TPM and AotC. Again, i'm not making this up, there are numerous references to the dark side having the ability to cloud the jedis vision (I wont repeat them, we all know what they are).

So where is the contradiction, apart from in your own head?

I still dont understand how this is any harder to grasp, or accept, than Obi Wans gibberish about energy fields in ep4.

why dont we just start with this, then go on from there.

If the darkside clouds everything, then how was Obi-Wan able to sense Vader in ANH on the Death Star? Obi knew Vader was there because he even stopped Luke from going with him when he said "Your destiny lies upon a different path from mine" (paraphrased). He knew he and Vader were going to have it out, but if the dark side clouds everything, then there's no way Obi should've been able to sense jack shit. The fact that it was an Imperial station means nothing either because Obi didn't guess Vader was there, he knew it, just as Vader clearly sensed Obi's presence. And no, Obi didn't know Vader was there because he saw his future on Tattooine, because if the dark side can cloud a council worth of Jedi, then there's no way a single lone one is going to be able to break through its barrier considering the Empire was the dominate force in the galaxy. Furthermore, in ROTJ, how did Luke sense Vader on board the ship when they were trying to land on Endor? For that matter, how was he able to sense the good in Vader? If the dark side clouds everything - feelings, thoughts, etc - Luke shouldn't have been able to sense a damn thing.

As it stands now, GL has changed the way the force works in the PT's to suit his plot. The dark side can sense and read the light, but not vice versa. It was never like that in the past and it's the same type of nonsense about Jedi not being allowed to marry or have kids. It's all revisionist garbage on GL's part which has allowed him to get "around" logical blockades. Whether or not you choose to see this is up to you.

[StarWarsIsUs]

If the darkside clouds everything, then how was Obi-Wan able to sense Vader in ANH on the Death Star? Obi knew Vader was there because he even stopped Luke from going with him when he said "Your destiny lies upon a different path from mine" (paraphrased). He knew he and Vader were going to have it out, but if the dark side clouds everything, then there's no way Obi should've been able to sense jack shit. The fact that it was an Imperial station means nothing either because Obi didn't guess Vader was there, he knew it, just as Vader clearly sensed Obi's presence.

This is because the Emporer wasn't making a special effort to 'cloud the force', because he thought the Jedi no longer possed a threat. You have to understand, maybe clouding the dark side takes up a lot of energy, and the Emporer, in his ever-old age, no longer had that energy to use, like he did in TPM and AOTC. This is my reasoning. Not saying I really support the idea as a whole, though.