[Deleted Scene]

but why would it need to be explained? and in fact, considering we are dealing with a fantasy universe with fantasy concepts that dont exist, how could it be explained at all? 'Dooku spiked their drinks!' just doesnt seem adaquate. as it stands, the dialogue in AotC explains it for everyone except those who dont want it explained, and who want to hate these films (perish the thought).

Typical stupid response "It's fantasy, it doesn't have to be explained" is something only a fanatic looking to defend the film at all cost would say. Excuse me if I'm not an idiot who accepts every stupid contrived plot device that GL uses and demand that he treat me, as a paying audience member, as an intelligent human being who wants some form of logical reasoning behind his decisions - even in a fantasy setting.

And to answer your little unnecessary charge, I'm not one of those people who wants to hate the film. I've probably been a SW fan longer than you've been alive.

but the obi/yoda bit wasnt, and thats all that was needed.

No it's not because casual fans, who don't know anything about the deletd scene, are going to wonder what the hell Yoda was talking about in reference to QGJ.

I just meant it was cool to see him in the background, since he wasnt in Ep2, it felt like a nice wrap up.

Oh that's a wrap-up to you? Seeing a crappy CGI character in the background with no dramatic or plot purpose is what you call GL answering an unresolved conflict like who Sifo-Diyas was? Please.

[StarWarsIsUs]

I agree that the Star Wars universe, while sometimes silly, does need to be taken seriously. It is a story that has been well developed in the OT, and not only is it very serious and mature in some parts, but it is by no means something you could say 'we shouldn't take too seriously.' Yes, SW is for fun, and it is for entertainement, and yes it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. But... it is still a serious story that has many life lessons to teach us.

[StarWarsIsUs]

I used the word 'serious' too many times. But I think you all got my point.

[jariten]

Dookus explanation was fine for everyone except the ones who made it their buisiness to hate these things.

As an example- how is Obi Wans explanation of the force in ep 4 any worse than how Dooku explains that the dark side has clouded their vision? because Obi Wans explanation was longer it was more convincing? because it was still made up of a bunch of invented, untestable elements.

How about if Dooku said- every month we rub a darkside crystal and thats why the jedi cant see Sidious. would something like that have been better? because at the moment, you still havnt convinced me why Dookus explanation is inadequate.

No it's not because casual fans, who don't know anything about the deletd scene, are going to wonder what the hell Yoda was talking about in reference to QGJ.

Rubbish. If you've seen TPM it makes perfect sense. and who goes into part 3 of a film cycle without seeing the other parts and still expect to understand it?

Oh that's a wrap-up to you?

To Boss Nass' character, yes.

This post has been edited by jariten: 20 May 2005 - 11:35 AM

[StarWarsIsUs]

Boss Nass belongs on another sci-fi movie. Not Star Wars.

[Deleted Scene]

Dookus explanation was fine for everyone except the ones who made it their buisiness to hate these things.

I guess there's no such thing as criticism for you then huh? If you like SW, you have to bindly accept any crap GL doles out, but if you criticize anything about it, then you're a hater? Lovely cult-type fanaticism you got going there. I can only assume you also love all the nonsensical changes he's made to the DVDs too.

As an example- how is Obi Wans explanation of the force in ep 4 any worse than how Dooku explains that the dark side has clouded their vision? because Obi Wans explanation was longer it was more convincing? because it was still made up of a bunch of invented, untestable elements.

Obi's explanation of the force in ep4 was fine because he he said:

"The force is what gives the Jedi its power. It's an energy field created by all living things, it surrounds us, penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together."

FYI, the dark side of the force is also the force, so why the Jedi can't sense anything about it needs to be explained in detail. It would one thing if the Sith were dead and the dark side was not connected to the force in any way, then it would make sense why the Jedi couldn't sense their actions seeing as how the force is created by LIVING things. But to have it that the Jedi conveniently can't sense anything because the dark side clouds everything is crap imo. Only an idiot would accept that blindly.

How about if Dooku said- every month we rub a darkside crystal and thats why the jedi cant see Sidious. would something like that have been better? because at the moment, you still havnt convinced me why Dookus explanation is inadequate.

As long as you blindly accept every contrivance GL uses, you'll never be convinced of anything.

Rubbish. If you've seen TPM it makes perfect sense. and who goes into part 3 of a film cycle without seeing the other parts and still expect to understand it?

You're talking complete nonsense now. There's nothing in TPM to indicate QGJ would ever come back. Hell, there's nothing in ROTS to indicate he's around and GL keeping in a scene where Yoda tells OWK about training on Tatooine to be done by his dead master is stupid. Plain and simple.

To Boss Nass' character, yes.

Oh, I didn't know making a useless 3-4 second cameo qualified as wrapping up a characters storyline. Yes, Boss Nass was as important as the 'Sifo-Diyas ordered the clones' plotline. Give me a break.

[Lord Melkor]

You know what, Deletes Scene?! You are right about Qui-Gon plot!

It was poorly executed!

[jariten]

I guess there's no such thing as criticism for you then huh? If you like SW, you have to bindly accept any crap GL doles out, but if you criticize anything about it, then you're a hater?

No, only if you dismiss perfectly feasible explanations. There are plenty of flaws in these films, but this just isnt one of them. Again, you havnt explained exactly what would make you happy with this.

But to have it that the Jedi conveniently can't sense anything because the dark side clouds everything is crap imo. Only an idiot would accept that blindly.

but how is that explanation any less 'convienient' then the Force being "an energy source that binds the galaxy together"? what I dont understand is how can you accept one half of the invented mythology coin and not the other. There is no more explanation about the Jedi being unable to detect Palpatine because no more is necessary. Why do we need anything else? The Jedi can use the force to move things because thats how the force works. the sith can use the darkside to cloud the jedis vision because thats how the force works. if you cant accept the second thing, how can you accept the first? how can you accept anything the jedi do?

You're talking complete nonsense now. There's nothing in TPM to indicate QGJ would ever come back

No, but its not necessary to know that in order to understand whats happening at the end of RotS!! we hear he voice in AotC, so hes obviously still around somehow, then we find out why in ep3. and I still dont understand why this would be confusing for an audience. Come on, let me in on the secret.

Oh, I didn't know making a useless 3-4 second cameo qualified as wrapping up a characters storyline. Yes, Boss Nass was as important as the 'Sifo-Diyas ordered the clones' plotline. Give me a break.

It was good to see him in the film, it was a nice link back to TPM, and provided some closure for his character. My Nass comment wasnt meant to be taken this seriously you know...
and I thought it was perfectly obvious that Dooku ordered the clone army. I dont want to get too sidetracked, but I wasnt aware there was any confusion there.

[Deleted Scene]

No, only if you dismiss perfectly feasible explanations. There are plenty of flaws in these films, but this just isnt one of them. Again, you havnt explained exactly what would make you happy with this.

If you think the reasons given are perfectly feasible, then there's nothing I can say.

but how is that explanation any less 'convienient' then the Force being "an energy source that binds the galaxy together"? what I dont understand is how can you accept one half of the invented mythology coin and not the other. There is no more explanation about the Jedi being unable to detect Palpatine because no more is necessary. Why do we need anything else? The Jedi can use the force to move things because thats how the force works. the sith can use the darkside to cloud the jedis vision because thats how the force works. if you cant accept the second thing, how can you accept the first? how can you accept anything the jedi do?

If the dark side can cloud the force so the Jedi can't sense anything and Palpatine is really that powerul, then why not just assasinate all the Jedi in their sleep? Considering how easily he had them all fooled, why didn't he move faster to take over? And even though GL would have us believe that the dark side was clouding the Jedi's vision in AotC, it apparently faded a bit in ep3 as Mace was able to sense an entire plot to destroy the Jedi! He didn't sense evil around, he sense the whole plot and scheme to take out the Jedi Knights! Oh please! Either they can sense it or not, but it was all too convenient, but if you choose to accept it blindly, that's fine.

No, but its not necessary to know that in order to understand whats happening at the end of RotS!! we hear he voice in AotC, so hes obviously still around somehow, then we find out why in ep3. and I still dont understand why this would be confusing for an audience. Come on, let me in on the secret.

I can't. You've accepted all of GL's nonsense wholeheartedly. No matter how logically I can explain anything, you've chosen to not see it otherwise.

It was good to see him in the film, it was a nice link back to TPM, and provided some closure for his character. My Nass comment wasnt meant to be taken this seriously you know...

I'm of the opinion that none of your comments are to be taken seriously.

and I thought it was perfectly obvious that Dooku ordered the clone army. I dont want to get too sidetracked, but I wasnt aware there was any confusion there.

It would be nice if GL had explained that to the audience. Most of us see the PT's knowing some behind the scenes stuff, but the casual filmgoer does not.

[jariten]

This thread is turning into a chatroom. so i'll lay off after this post and let someone else get a foot in.

If you think the reasons given are perfectly feasible, then there's nothing I can say.

so your argument is that you dont have an argument?! not terribly convincing is it?

If the dark side can cloud the force so the Jedi can't sense anything and Palpatine is really that powerul, then why not just assasinate all the Jedi in their sleep?

with a knife I suppose? when they're spread out all over the galaxy? and how would he explain this to the senate, and still keep everyone in line? the beauty of his plan is that he turns a democracy into facism, and the transisiton is slow and invisible. They're giving up their liberty, their freedom, and they've been duped into believing its for their own good.

And even though GL would have us believe that the dark side was clouding the Jedi's vision in AotC, it apparently faded a bit in ep3 as Mace was able to sense an entire plot to destroy the Jedi!

You mean after he found out P. was a sith? well, what else would he be up to? remember, they knew there was a sith, they just didnt know who. they clearly suspected Palpatine, but without evidence, what could they do? (hence putting Anakin in to report on him).

I can't.

thought not.

[Deleted Scene]

so your argument is that you dont have an argument?! not terribly convincing is it?

If you think I don't have an argument, then I know you haven't been reading my posts. Your slurping of Lucas has blinded you to my points.

with a knife I suppose? when they're spread out all over the galaxy? and how would he explain this to the senate, and still keep everyone in line? the beauty of his plan is that he turns a democracy into facism, and the transisiton is slow and invisible. They're giving up their liberty, their freedom, and they've been duped into believing its for their own good.

Which has nothing to do with my original statement which you've failed to counter in any way - the dark side clouding the Jedi's vision is never fully explained.

You mean after he found out P. was a sith? well, what else would he be up to? remember, they knew there was a sith, they just didnt know who. they clearly suspected Palpatine, but without evidence, what could they do? (hence putting Anakin in to report on him).

You're just making shit up to try and explain things now. God damn at least get the story straight. They did not suspect Palpatine was a sith lord. They had a feeling he was up to no good, but in no way did they think he was the sith they were looking for. Point is, how could Mace sense an entire plot to destroy the Jedi if the dark side was clouding the Jedi's vision?

thought not.

Nice omission of my entire comment to make it appear as though I said something I didn't. Here it is in its entirety:

I can't. You've accepted all of GL's nonsense wholeheartedly. No matter how logically I can explain anything, you've chosen to not see it otherwise.

[StarWarsIsUs]

They did not suspect Palpatine was a sith lord. They had a feeling he was up to no good, but in no way did they think he was the sith they were looking for. Point is, how could Mace sense an entire plot to destroy the Jedi if the dark side was clouding the Jedi's vision?

The Dark Side should never have clouded the Jedi's vision. This defeats the purpose of being a Jedi, in my opinion. I can accept SOME individual clouding, on small terms, such as if the Jedi is growing weak from battle, or has turned to the darkside. But the way the other PT movies do it, is unacceptable in my opinion.

This post has been edited by StarWarsIsUs: 20 May 2005 - 02:02 PM

[Helena]

It's completely ridiculous. The Jedi have been happily using the Force for countless millennia, then suddenly the Dark Side is 'clouding' it somehow and we're never even given an explanation? Not to mention that all this stuff is completely forgotten about by the time of the OT? Give me a break.

[Vwing]

Going back to the original post, it couldn't have stood alone, but everything we needed to know from TPM and AOTC could have been done in at most 30 or 45 minutes.

The ideal thing with the prequels would have been to have about 20 minutes of the actual Episode I in Episode I to set the movie up, to have the rest of Episode I be AOTC, to have the new Episode II show the Clone Wars and the gradual fall to the Dark Side of Anakin (which would have eliminated the only real major problem I had, from a storytelling aspect, about Episode III), and then have Episode III just the way it is.

But as it is, TPM and AOTC do seem irrelevent. A bunch of people say this film redeems the prequels. But as I said before, it just makes them look even more unnecessary than they were (and they looked pretty unnecessary before this).

[StarWarsIsUs]

""Going back to the original post, it couldn't have stood alone, but everything we needed to know from TPM and AOTC could have been done in at most 30 or 45 minutes."'

They could have done it all in short flashbacks during the movie, so that it wouldn't take a matter of almost an hour. Then, Lucas could cover his stupid storyline of TPM and AOTC in like... 2 minutes extra in the movie. If he used flashbacks, that is.