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"Only the Dark Side Deals in Absolutes"

#1 User is offline   Primetime Icon

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Posted 16 May 2005 - 11:05 AM

What do you all think of this line? (ObiWan's reply to "You're either with us or against us") I'm sure most of you have heard about it. Does it have any bearing on some of the arguments people have been having here? Is Lucas that much of a liberal? Will the red states rebel?

This post has been edited by Primetime: 16 May 2005 - 11:06 AM

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#2 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 16 May 2005 - 11:24 AM

Yeah, that galls me. It certainly sounds liberal, especially that opening crawl of "there are heroes on both sides," that just sounds moronic.

He certainly is an enigma. On the one hand he has these liberal comments, yet, he of all people, has partook rather well in the whole capitalist endeavor.

I'll admit, I'm more conservative, but I just want a movie that entertains, I don't want to be beaned in the face with sophmoric interpretaton of politics. If I want to watch movies about politics, I'll watch just about everything else... I never watched Star Wars for this kind of crap.

This post has been edited by CowboyCurtis: 16 May 2005 - 11:26 AM

Flying Ferret

Battle for the Galaxy--read the "other Star Wars"

All I know is I haven't seen the real prequels yet.
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Posted 16 May 2005 - 11:26 AM

Good point. The man's one big "corporate interest."
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#4 User is offline   rangwe Icon

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Posted 16 May 2005 - 11:42 AM

Lucas keeps telling himself and anyone who will listen how "independent" he is of Holywood. Yet he consistently refuses to make movies that challenge assumptions or break new ground.

I find his PT movies show a lot of Puritan influence, being devoid of any realistic signs of vice or human clutter, with a fascination for control of the masses. That sounds like a closet conservative to me.

As for cashing in on 9/11 changes for the worse, well everybody is doing that. He could just be trying something to evoke a response - it doesn't have to be indicative of his views, keep that in mind. It could just be amateurish moviemaking.

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#5 User is offline   JW Wells Icon

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Posted 18 May 2005 - 01:29 PM

I think the political implications of this line, if any, are beneath comment.

What's sad to me is that the original "Star Wars" was actually somewhat courageous to portray a fictional world in which good and evil were presented as clearly identifiable and absolute. Check other famous 70s sci-fi movies if you doubt me. And now we have a 180-degree turn into "nothing is asolutely bad except absolutes".
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#6 User is offline   StarWarsIsUs Icon

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Posted 18 May 2005 - 02:26 PM

Post modernism.
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#7 User is offline   snaithbert Icon

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Posted 18 May 2005 - 03:27 PM

QUOTE (rangwe @ May 16 2005, 11:42 AM)
I find his PT movies show a lot of Puritan influence, being devoid of any realistic signs of vice or human clutter, with a fascination for control of the masses. 


That's one of the best summations of the PT I've ever heard (or read).

Well said sir.

This post has been edited by snaithbert: 18 May 2005 - 03:28 PM

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#8 User is offline   Failureboy2 Icon

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Posted 18 May 2005 - 04:13 PM

I remember reading some of Lucas's comments about Clinton a few years ago, and while they weren't uber-negative, they weren't exactly praiseworthy either. Then recently, he said something (I think in Wired) about how Farenheit 911 is flawed because Moore has a very clear bias - and when you watch it you know you're getting one side of the story, and because of that the truth of his message gets obscured. I'm paraphrasing, but that was the gist of it.

Now we have this bit of Obiwan dialogue. I don't think it makes Lucas a Liberal, but it does suggest he has problems with some things Bush has said. And that's why I think it's a dumb line; it's too likely to distract people. Republican or Democrat or in between, do you really want to start thinking about that stuff during a Star Wars movie? More to the point, do you want it SHOVED IN YOUR FACE?

Even if I hated Bush (which I don't) I'd still feel uncomfortable if the director made a thinly veiled political comment about him. That's the kind of thing that makes me squirm in my seat, that makes me aware I'm watching a movie with a bunch of strangers around me.

I also think Obiwan's statement is kind of dumb. So the Jedi don't believe in absolutes of any kind? Right...
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#9 User is offline   Veer Icon

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Posted 18 May 2005 - 04:20 PM

QUOTE (JW Wells @ May 18 2005, 11:29 AM)
I think the political implications of this line, if any, are beneath comment.

  What's sad to me is that the original "Star Wars" was actually somewhat courageous to portray a fictional world in which good and evil were presented as clearly identifiable and absolute.  Check other famous 70s sci-fi movies if you doubt me.  And now we have a 180-degree turn into "nothing is asolutely bad except absolutes".


Well, it was hardly ground breaking. We similar themes in Tolkiens work, and pretty much every childrens fairy tale.
Besides, even in Tolkiens work, if one gets into the back-story no charcater starts out as simply evil, they become 'evil', usually through the corrupting influence of greed for power. And even then the good characters always hold out the hope for redemption.
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#10 User is offline   Devout Catalyst Icon

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Posted 18 May 2005 - 04:22 PM

QUOTE (rangwe @ May 16 2005, 12:42 PM)
Lucas keeps telling himself and anyone who will listen how "independent" he is of Holywood.  Yet he consistently refuses to make movies that challenge assumptions or break new ground.


Yes! Absolutely true.

Admittedly, in 1977, it was a big deal for Lucas to make a movie like Star Wars after many rejections, little support once he found a studio, and non-existent technology to produce the kinds of effects he wanted. That he built a legacy from the ground up and had to innovate as he went along is praiseworthy.

Now, flash forward to the present. Lucas can afford to be "independent." It is not a matter of principle for him. It's a luxury that he's lucky to have.

Plus, he has made who knows how many millions from the merchandising. So while he may be independent from Hollywood, he is entirely too dependent on the marketing machine.

"Independence" is not a badge of honor or a statement of purpose for Lucas the way it is for a struggling filmmaker who has everything to lose.

This post has been edited by Devout Catalyst: 18 May 2005 - 04:22 PM

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#11 User is offline   Veer Icon

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Posted 18 May 2005 - 04:27 PM

QUOTE (Failureboy2 @ May 18 2005, 02:13 PM)
Now we have this bit of Obiwan dialogue.  I don't think it makes Lucas a Liberal, but it does suggest he has problems with some things Bush has said.  And that's why I think it's a dumb line; it's too likely to distract people.  Republican or Democrat or in between, do you really want to start thinking about that stuff during a Star Wars movie?  More to the point, do you want it SHOVED IN YOUR FACE?



It's also perhaps that you're simply reading too much into this. Bush is certainly not the person who invented the phrase "You're either with us or against us", it's sentiment has been spoken and echoed by many people across time. Given the situation, not to mention state of mind Anakin finds himself in, it's a reasonable thing to say.
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#12 User is offline   Failureboy2 Icon

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Posted 18 May 2005 - 05:09 PM

QUOTE (Veer @ May 18 2005, 03:27 PM)
It's also perhaps that you're simply reading too much into this. Bush is certainly not the person who invented the phrase "You're either with us or against us", it's sentiment has been spoken and echoed by many people across time.  Given the situation, not to mention state of mind Anakin finds himself in, it's a reasonable thing to say.


Maybe. But there are a couple reviews already that mention how the movie makes veiled commentary on the current administration (including aintitcool I think). I'm not making this up.

Off-topic: how soon do you think a bootleg of ROTS will be available for download?
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#13 User is offline   littlejerryseinfeld Icon

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 01:36 AM

QUOTE (Veer @ May 18 2005, 04:20 PM)
Besides, even in Tolkiens work, if one gets into the back-story no charcater starts out as simply evil, they become 'evil', usually through the corrupting influence of greed for power. And even then the good characters always hold out the hope for redemption.


that doesn't change the fact that some characters, no matter how they became 'evil' ARE evil, and need to be destroyed.

or should we wait around for grand moff tarkin to discover that destroying alderaan was 'naughty', and then give him a medal for figuring it out?
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#14 User is offline   Veer Icon

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 03:11 AM

QUOTE (littlejerryseinfeld @ May 18 2005, 11:36 PM)
that doesn't change the fact that some characters, no matter how they became 'evil' ARE evil, and need to be destroyed.


I was just pointing out that good n evil portrayed as black vs white works adequately for simple stories, but fails as the story becomes more complex. At least this is how it has been handled in the literary world. All IMO ofcourse.

QUOTE (littlejerryseinfeld @ May 18 2005, 11:36 PM)
or should we wait around for grand moff tarkin to discover that destroying alderaan was 'naughty', and then give him a medal for figuring it out?


To be fair, the only person (if you can call him that) I saw as being ‘intrinsically evil' in the OT was the Emperor. I never thought of him as once a human, but more like some kind of embodiment of evil more than an actual person.
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Posted 19 May 2005 - 08:57 AM

Greed, and greed alone, is what this universe was made of. Don't you realize, that if there is a god, he would be evil? There is no other explanation for our sufferings. He lowers us down to where we need to be, to be less powerful than him. He gets off on seeing us suffer. And I believe this fully. GREED! POWER! Those are things nobody can deny.
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