[maclamb]

I think lucas was (consciously or not) writing for Jason in "FoxTrot"
Chef makes the point that 8 years olds will cream over SW,
18, 28, etc will not.
I saw star wars when first released and was midteens and was bored silly. Didn't see the big deal. Thought it superficial, trite, poorly acted and dumb. In the same league as Spielberg and Steven King. Sure, they have their moments, even a blind pig finds an acorn now and then, but, by and large, pandering to the masses - not that everything has to be citizen kane.

By then acid, heinlein, asimov, clarke, burgess, (among others) 2001 had taken their toll. The obvious BS was too distracting.

While i grant SW is a fun story for kids, so is Mickey Mouse, and we all stopped laughing at his 4 fingers and perfectly spherical ears years ago. Come to think of it, early disney cartoons are actually Better than SW.. better plot lines, more logical flow in service to the story, better character development and acting, etc...
I think the issues we find, while valid I think, are, for the most part irrelevant, as we are not the audience lucas is marketing to
AND
all sequels suck, by definition (or so my wife says and my wife is always right)
AND
Lucas has said that SW was done so he could be financially secure to make the films he *really* wants to make
I bet he reads the chef and laughs, knowing we'll all go see III - which pisses me off enough that I'll wait to rent it...or it comes to our $1.00 theatre.

This post has been edited by maclamb: 15 May 2005 - 12:05 AM

[Dark_Sith]

So basically your telling us, that because you thought SW was boring when you saw the originals, you must be saying that your opinion is fact and we must all accept it and follow your opinions and ideals?

[Lord Melkor]

Hey, this all a fairy tale! Some people enjoy those things, others don`t!

[StarWarsIsUs]

You don't like the OT? Than whats the freaking point of posting in these forums? Have you come here to insult us?

[maclamb]

You don't like the OT? Than whats the freaking point of posting in these forums? Have you come here to insult us?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

BWhahahahaah

You seriously feel insulted? Do you idenitfy with your beliefs and opinions a bit too much perhaps? Opinions are like a**holes - everyone has one. So what? Are you actually saying I have too like the movies to post here? don't remember reading that in the rules.

I enjoyed chef's piece so much I wanted to share a few thoughts with him and the rest of you, by extension.
I can't believe I actually have to write this, but
DUH obviously all I'm stating are my own opinions and likes and dislikes. Just because I don't like SW doesn't mean I hold anyone who does like it in low regard. and besides, why would you care what I think? for all you know I'm lucas and explaining why the movies seem so bad...
sheesh.

a bit defensive are we?

My point of the post was to offer the theory that lucas was writing for those w/o a rational, critical mind, in the context of chef's 78/64 articles, and other posts which seem to point to the irrationality, inconsistency and lack of thought behind the prequals. I was offering a possible rational explanation to an apparently irrational act on lucas'' part. I'm not the first - look at some of what chef wrote...

Melkor nailed it - it's all just fantasy and some like some of it and others don't and I haven't actually seen anyone reply to the actual point of my post. People seemed to gloom onto that I didn't like OT.
(i digress, "Melkor"? you named yourself after the most evil, hurtful, SATANIC character in LOTR/Silmirillion on purpose?)

But I got the not so subtle hint and will take my light saber and go play elsewhere. I could make a snide remark about 2 of the responses to my post proving my theory, but I'm far too mature to do that LOL.

And, for what it''s worth, I did like the end of ROTJ where luke saves his dad. always brings a tear.

sheesh

[Lord Melkor]

Indeed Maclamb, you got me, I am evil incarnated! (But don`t tell this to my girlfriend!)

But yes, I always liked epic fantasy villains, including Melkor, Lucifer and Palpatine.

You don`t like Stephen King? I greatly enjoyed many of his books, he actually creates realistic characters!

Do you enjoy any fantasy at all?! There is some great grim and gritty stuff too, I suggest A Song of Ice and Fire!

And I hope end of ROTJ will get much more powerful after ROTS!

This post has been edited by Lord Melkor: 15 May 2005 - 10:57 AM

[maclamb]

Indeed Maclamb, you got me, I am evil incarnated! (But don`t tell this to my girlfriend!)

But yes, I always liked epic fantasy villains, including Melkor, Lucifer and Palpatine.

You don`t like Stephen King? I greatly enjoyed many of his books, he actually creates realistic characters!

Do you enjoy any fantasy at all?! There is some great grim and gritty stuff too, I suggest A Song of Ice and Fire!

And I hope end of ROTJ will get much more powerful after ROTS!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ahhh, an intelligent reply, I am pleased to answer.
I have always loved the Silmarilillion - I find it my favourite description of creation - just love the poetic touches...

My likes/dislikes range far and near - I have emotional likes and intellectual likes. Stuff I find enjoyable and entertaining, though may not think of it as "good" (ie, well done, well written, directed, etc. I am a mac person and find mac hw/sw fas superior to windoze, for example, but still use it ..i digress)

There is some steven king I like - It and Insomnia and the Stand, and some short stories - though I don't see him as well written, or well done.
If this all seems contradictory, well, ok, I contradict myself, i contain multitudes.

i never did too much fantasy stuff, no D&D (some Hack on the pc) no real role playng games - I'm mostly a hermit - and it took 45 years to find a wife I want to be around - though she doesn;t like fantasy as a rule LOL
I have a good imaginiation and write, draw, play music, so I have some feel for creative side - my fav was probably heinlein - and not even ALL of his stuff. (moon is a harsh mistress remains my fav, though glory road is fun for sheer enterainment "my wife the queen of the 20 universes" i'm sure he wrote the whole book just ot use that line.)

I have a fairly good intellect so I prefer stuff with some brains to it, and maybe that's why I don't like SW - FOR ME it deos not seem to be very intelligent, no real good characters, or story. That's just how it appears to me - I have no idea how it appears to others.
By definition there is only the universe as it appears to me - I cannot know another's universe, and even the existence of others is unprovable and there is no objective, external reality.

Too much info right?
anyway, I do have emotional likes and SW at times hits that pretty well - as I said, end of ROTJ brings tears. Not enough for me to go out and spend $ on the dvd's though.
I have the LOTR extended edition and think jackson brilliant. If i even started to compare SW and LOTR it would be done fast. in my mind, no comparison on any levels - apples and oranges and leave it at that. LOTR was the first fantasy I really read and that before I was in my teens.

As I said, I just dropped by after reading chef's articles whihc I find much better than the movies! and a couple of thoughts, no real interest in long discussions about an area I don't really care for or pay much attention to. But I think it's great if all of you love it and have such interest. The universe has something for everyone and plays no favorites. For me it's not about the content, anyway...

not sure you're into this kind of stuff, but I have a web site I play at creating:
www.wakethemup.org

anyway, your girlfriend already knows
Have you read Paradise Lost?

[Failureboy2]

Citizine Kane is over-rated and boring. The Karate Kid is way better than Citizine Kane. So are all the original Star Wars movies.

[Lord Melkor]

Maclamb, I have read Paradise Lost, long ago! But what did you mean with your last sentence?

[maclamb]

Maclamb, I have read Paradise Lost, long ago! But what did you mean with your last sentence?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

do you mean about your girlfriend already knowing?
I was kidding, I, of course, have no idea what she knows or doesn't know or if she even exists.
I just meant she must have known you were "evil" when she met and chose you.

and, to be annoyingly pedantic , "Melkor' is no longer uttered, right? Like the beatles won't utter the name of the man who shot John. ("he who shall not be named").

[Lord Melkor]

No Maclamb, the true name is Melkor, He Who Comes With The Might! The greatest of all the children of Iluvatar, he who had enough courage to add his own thread to the song of creation! Only those who feared him, misunderstood. used the name Morgoth!

And my girlfriend still believes I am a very good men, despite my fixation with certain fictional aspects of evil! Oh, the sweet innocence of certain women...

[StarWarsIsUs]

I have to admit, I like Tolkien, and The Hobbit, and the Lord of the Rings trilogy, but the Silmarillion is one of the most boring books I have ever read. Melkor wasn't much of a villain, either. I think Chris Tolkien should have left his father's notes alone, that way we wouldn't have this book.

[Lord Melkor]

Well, I see your points about Silmarilion... This is not a typical novel, it reads more like mythology...

But for the person who likes history and mythology, like me, Silmarilion was a great read!

[maclamb]

Well, I see your points about Silmarilion...  This is not a typical novel, it reads more like mythology...

But for the person who likes history and mythology, like me, Silmarilion was a great read! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i agree after. say, the first 20 pages...yes, boring and there are better villians, but I really like the illuvatar song stuff - I think it's a nice way to tell the story...

[rangwe]

Maclamb, good post. Welcome to the "wretched hive of scum and villainy". This place can be a little rough, as no doubt you've guessed. Heh heh, the people who say "we don't serve your kind here" are just busting balls. There's room in this cantina for all kinds of views.

I get what you are saying on the maturity-view aspect. That it was "made for the simple minds of children" and not for adult consumption. Its a compelling argument and it gives me pause to think. I think that the argument doesn't hold water for ANH and ESB, but it may for RotJ and the PT it certainly seems to hold true.

I saw the OT in the theaters with my parents and relatives (both adult and my age) several times. I remember that in the case of ANH and ESB both adults and members of my age group had all night conversations about the "adult issues" in the movies. We talked about the great imagery, the philosophy, and the true-to-life scenarios presented in those movies. So I don't accept that in the case of those movies, there was a "made for kids" intent per se.

Now, with RotJ, things were different. Me and the entire extended family made a beeline for the theater on opening night for RotJ and expected more of the same. But, to tell the truth, the adults walked out less than enthusiastic and the kids came out generally pleased but not overwhelmed. We didn't talk about the film at all really, and instead the two age groups separated afterwards into general activity (the kids ended up playing DnD, specifically C1, the aztec tomb adventure for geeks out there).

I remember several of my adult relatives briefly mentioning "Lucas has lost it", specifically in the scene with Yoda fading away (which I didn't like either) they felt like that was a sign that Lucas had grown tired of the franchise and wanted to "fade away" like Yoda. So based on my experience, I'd say that the age-or-mentality argument doesn't work until you get to RotJ. I would go so far as to say that from RotJ on, Lucas adopted a "This is what I think kids will like" attitude that is appealing *neither* to children *nor* to adults, but panders to them based on an incomplete picture of what enjoyment is about.

I assumed that the Star Wars phenomena's race was run a long time ago. Lucas has brought some intriguing ideas and some fresh energy to the franchise with the PT. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like he's evolved much beyond the undeveloped attitude he adopted in RotJ. He's tried to make excuses for this shortcoming in some interviews by saying he made the movies for children not adults, but this contradicts his stated reasons for making the triolgy "a fairy tale for adults" (that is, an all-inclusive life view anyone can relate to).

I don't have a name that describes it, but I suppose a "juvenile" outlook fits. I would say, that if your outlook is correct, then Lucas made ANH and ESB the way they were by accident, and that it is only as he gained more creative control (starting with RotJ and control being total by the time of TPM) that his true intentions began to become more clear.

- rangwe