[azryan]

Please help me make a Poll.

I tried to make this poll myself but it kept telling me I was only giving one choice? In the box for choices I put

Yes

No

I don’t know how that’s only 'one choice' or what to do so can someone else make this poll for me?

Please make the subject-

“Did you want to see Anakin turn into Vader?”

Poll choices-

Yes

No

And in the text body paste this explanation for the poll itself

“In an argument in another thread azryan made the reply to 'Veer's comment "- I mean, who wants to see the Hero fall at the end?-"

azryan said "-Sorry, but everyone did. Ask around. Everyone wanted to see Anakin become Vader. It was by far the one thing that SW fans wanted to see from this trilogy.-"

Sagacity replied-

"-Sorry, no. I didn't want to see it, nobody I know wanted to see it. Not back in '83, not during the Great Hiatus, not after the SEs came out.-"

This was clearly going to be a 'yes they did'/ 'no they didn't' waste of time battle so this poll will let everyone decide which is true plain and simple.

Thanks!”

[azryan]

lengthy post deemed redundant by author and removed by request.

This post has been edited by Despondent: 14 May 2005 - 02:16 AM

[azryan]

“-Sounds a bit like how the rebellion is portrayed in the OT. Boring and uneventful depends on how you tell the story. There is potential there.-“

As I said already... there’s ALWAYS ‘potential’. I simply stated that the plot points of the PT are much more pivotal, grand and ‘epic’ events.

Sure you could make a whole trilogy about just a couple of random rebels risking their lives around the galaxy looking for secret Empire plans and hell it could be as cool as the Indy series where he’s hunting for treasure keeping away from assorted lower baddies and big nazis.

Or it could be the utter trash that was the Di$ey Indy rip-off National Treasure.

There were just MANY things (which I already listed) that were much more epic events that many many people wanted to see play out in this mythology that also greatly effected this entire SW galaxy than your i

It’s not that I’m ‘more right’ but it’s just an inherently better plot for a grand action/drama trilogy of films.

Again.... and lucas TOTALLY screwed it up so yeah... might as well have been your idea.

Might as well got some bag lady to crazy up some daft idea too. Couldn’t be worse than what lucas did.

I said -Obi-Wan was just as much a main character in this trilogy as Anakin so I think that's a weak argument.

You said -“Hardly, the PT is afterall the story of Anakins rise and fall.-“

That’s one of the key plots but it’s not the the only one.

“-Obi-wan just happens to be there to move the plot along.-“

Right. And Anakin just happens to be there to move the plot along too. As is Palpatine, Yoda, Padme, etc...

I didn’t say Obi-Wan was THE main character ‘cuz there isn’t only ONE main character -which is what you clearly think (and you think it’s Anakin).

Obi-Wan is there from the very beginning in Epi. I before Anakin even is in it.

He’s at Anakin’s side or progressing the plot as much as Anakin in Epi. II and is his master.

And not to spoil anything in III but he’s VERY key to the whole conclusion of this trilogy.

He’s also more important to the story than Vader in Epi 4 and just as key as Vader as a ghostie in Epi. 5 and 6.


If you ‘demanded’ I choose who a ‘single main character’ is I might say Anakin for the PT, BUT I also might say Palpatine in that he’s really more the whole center of the entire PT tragic ‘Galaxy falls’ plot than anyone else by far, despite not having as much screen time as other characters.

But then are we talking ‘main character’ story-wise or ‘movie-star-wise’? ‘Cuz movie star-wise Ewan M. is certainly every bit as much a ‘lead’ as Hayden C.

As for your Bail Organa comments...

You said -“-You make the mistake of seeing Lucas's portrayal of the character/events as the only way the character/events could be portrayed.-“

I never make that mistake. And I often think about how I’d correct/improve the vast mistakes lucas has made in these films.

I was coming at your comment as if the entire film weren’t totally rewritten. If you want to talk about the story in TOTALLY open ended terms having nothing to do with lucas at all well.... man I’d TOTALLY redo the entire trilogy and the debate over giving Bail Organa more of a role wouldn’t even factor in to what I’d do.

But Organa being the ‘key’ role was your idea. I think it’s a poor one.

“-In the PT Bail Organa does nothing but stand around, though I believe his role in ROTS will be slightly expanded. But there is potential for a story-“

Again.... yes there’s ALWAYS ‘potential’.

Fact -his character is a Senator.

All I was saying is that’s inherently a lame ass charater. Sure I could think of a way to make him cool and one of the main characters. I could do the same with oh say... damn near anyone in the film.

Pick a coupla’ Jedi masters who did next to nothing in the first two films and make them ‘key’.

Hell... pick that fat alien burger flipper Dex who helped Obi-Wan find where a deadly dart was made and make him the star.

It’s all dumb, but anything could be rewritten.

You simply saying ‘it could be better’ isn’t backing your claims up at all. Same as I didn’t just back up mine, but you’re the one making this point really.

“-We know from the OT that Obi-wan severed as a general for Organa in the Clone Wars,-“

Who’s what did Obi-Wan sever? Kidding..

Seriously... see now you’re using things lucas made up. That’s all I did when I explained that Bail Organa was a Senator.

“-What would be so wrong about the story of a Galactic Clone War, in which Organa plays a pivotal role in winning, aided by Obi-wan and his young apprentice - Anakin. Things then go to pot, Anakin turns, the Emperor reveals himself, Organa and Obi-wan attempt to resist, but are unsuccessful. Obi-wan goes into hiding, and Organa takes Anakins estranged wife into his household and upon her death adopts her daughter as his own. A great last scene for the PT could be Organa and his wife standing on a balcony overlooking ALderaan, to be joined by a young Leia (maybe 5 or 6). End credits.-“

You should have added this idea when you said your idea would be better -to back up your claim.

Sadly I have to say it’s not better and you didn’t actually think up anything at all in that paragraph.

What you described is what happens in the actual trilogy. All except where you add the name ‘Organa’ and that Padme lives -for no reason at all.

Saying ‘Organa’s important to the winning’ isn’t actually a ‘story idea’.

I could say ‘What if Chewbacca was pivitol to winning!?’ People dig Chewy so it’s a good idea right?
No. It’s nothing. It’s not an actual story idea.

“-Organa works a main character (if not the THE main character) because in the OT his torch is carried on by Leia,-“

That just doesn’t make any sense. Just saying ‘he works the main character’ doesn’t mean you thought of anything that is a real good story idea. Or even a coherent sentence.

“-and we don't need to know why he isn't in the OT (he either died in the intervening time, and if not, was definitely killed early on in the OT when Alderaan is blown up).-“

Hell... just ‘cuz his home’s on Alderaan, why does that mean HE blew up on it?

He could be off somewhere helping the rebels -which actually makes MORE sense since you think Jimmy Smits should be the main character and be key to the rebel fight.

Might as well make up anything at all though.

“-There was curiosity about how Darth Vader became Darth Vader to be sure,-“

‘Curiosity’? No. That’s really trying to downplay the actual feelings most fans had about wanting to see Anakin fall and become Vader, but at least you change your position that people didn’t want to see it at all.

Foaming at the mouth hyper to see would be closer to the truth.
But to not exaggerate.... most fans really wanted to see it. Simple as that.

I can’t believe that’s even debatable.

Next you’ll tell me no one wanted to see Yoda fight right?

“-Imagine watching ROTJ and at the end Luke chooses the dark side and sides with the emperor? Might still be a great movie, and the ending need not change, since both Darth Luke and the Emperor would die once the death star blew up, but would leave a bad taste in the mouth. Not good story telling.-“

That’s true your ending was not good storytelling.

Why? First off ‘cuz you didn’t say you’d change anything else in that trilogy so Luke hooking up with the Emp is totally out of character and just sounds dumb.

Second... Luke knew they were gonna blow up the Death Star so it’s also dumb that you write that he’d just blow up.
If he wanted to take over for Vader under the Emp then he woulda gotten on his ship with the Emp and they’d take off together.

Now if you add/change several things to change the way Luke’s Sithness progresses than yeah... I might say that it works.
Which is more like the plot of Anakin’s fall.

Remember most people love Empire Strikes Back as their fav or 2nd fave and it had a dark ending.

Tragic ending doesn’t have to be bad. Gladiator died. Braveheart died. Luke could have died in RotJ if it was written well but I think it was better to have Luke win and be the hero Jedi.

“-Surprises me that you can't see the Saga (episodes 1-6) being Anakins/Vaders story rather than Lukes.-“

Ok, you’re surprised.

I’ll say it again.... 1-3 is about Anakin’s rise/fall and Palpatine’s greater rise, and the fall of the Jedi, etc...

And 4-6 is about Luke being the ‘New Hope’ and the rebellion in general finally beating the Emperor’s Empire while Luke beats Vader.

“-Anader is a central character in all 6 episodes, while Luke appears only in the last 3.-“

Who’s Anander? Oh that’s your combo of Anakin/Vader? Ok.

Anakin is NOT a the central character in 4-6. He’s hardly in most of it ‘cept for a fight with Luke and till the end of Jedi.

Look at who the movie focuses on and you’ll see 4-6 focus on Luke, Leia and Han, Chewy... droids. The Rebellion.

“-The entire Saga tells the story of Anaders rise, fall and redemption.-“

The ‘rise’ and ‘fall’ part is 100% only in the PT.

The ‘redemption’ part you add as if all three are equal is NOT equal at all.

It’s only at the very very end of Jedi that Vader sees Luke getting shocked up and decides to switch sides and toss the Emp.

That’s a key moment in the film but it’s not the whole point of that film and it’s certainly NOT the point at all in A New Hope or Emp. Strikes Back.

Vader is just a cool bad guy in A New Hope. No depth or story at all.

And Vader saying ‘join me I’m your pops’ is the only thing in Empire that adds anything to Vader and that’s just one (albeit shocking at the time) line.

“-Luke just happens to be the catalyst which helps him redeem himself.-“

That’s just wrong. It’s simply NOT what the plot/story of Epi 4-6 actually is.

“-The PT also makes the entire movie ESB redundant, since the major plot point in the movie - Vader being Lukes father - is something we already know.-“

You’re wrong that Vader being Luke’s father is ‘the major plot point’.

It does make that revelation weak to the audience if you know the PT before you see ESB, but that doesn’t not make it a shocking event for LUKE.

We all know the boat was gonna sink in Titanic. That didn’t ruin the film ‘cuz it still shocked the hell out of all the people on the boat who we watched discover that they were about to die.

I knew Ray Charles was blind and he wrote lots of good hit songs. That didn’t ruin the good movie about him where we see him become blind and write those hit songs.

Hell.... we all knew Indy wasn’t gonna die in the Indy films. Did that ruin it?

No. ‘Cuz Indy didn’t know he wasn’t gonna die. It’s enough for a character to be shocked even if the audience isn’t.

But it is better for the audience to ‘also’ be shocked so I’d suggest kids first seeing any SW films see the OT first. Then quickly see the PT as fast as they can before they turn 7 and see through all the garbage in it.

[azryan]

Can a Mod please delete post #17 of mine??

I tried to edit it just to write it a little more clearly but it wouldn't let me??

So post #18 is what I wanted to post.

Sorry for two looong almost the same posts. And then this one too. Yeesh

[StarWarsIsUs]

*raises eyebrow*

[azryan]

What does 'raises eyebrow' suppose to mean?

[Veer]

Reply to Azryan

Sure you could make a whole trilogy about just a couple of random rebels risking their lives around the galaxy looking for secret Empire plans and hell it could be as cool as the Indy series where he’s hunting for treasure keeping away from assorted lower baddies and big nazis.

You need to open your mind that pivotal, grand and epic events can take place between the fall of Anakin and the events of ANH. Certainly there is no need for these pivotal, grand and epic events to occur with Anakin being the main heroic character. There is potential everywhere, it is (or was) an open slate. Just because Lucas choose to do it one way (which stunk) doesn’t mean it’s the only way it could be done.

It’s not that I’m ‘more right’ but it’s just an inherently better plot for a grand action/drama trilogy of films.

Well, take ESB for example. What grand, epic, pivotal event occurred? The Rebellion escapes (again!), and the only event of any Galactic significance was the Empire taking over Bespin. Boo hoo. Would hardly have made the evening news. The real story was the struggle between Luke and Vader, and Vader revealing Lukes parentage. A personal story.

You said -“Hardly, the PT is afterall the story of Anakins rise and fall.-“

That’s one of the key plots but it’s not the the only one.

{snip}

Right. And Anakin just happens to be there to move the plot along too. As is Palpatine, Yoda, Padme, etc...



It’s the MAIN plot point. Remember the whole prophecy thing? Not to mention who destroys the Droid control ship in TPM. Then there’s the whole point of ROTS. Anakin is the only unique heroic character in the PT, no other Jedi could do what he did. Obi-wan, Yoda, atleast so far have been only fillers. What does Obi-wan accomplish in AOTC that no other Jedi could have? Replace Obi-wan with Kit Fisto, and you have the same movie. You can’t replace Anakin though….

Obi-Wan is there from the very beginning in Epi. I before Anakin even is in it.
He’s at Anakin’s side or progressing the plot as much as Anakin in Epi. II and is his master.

Now you’re reaching badly. Leia appears in ANH before Luke does, hehe…. As for the plot bit, see above.

And not to spoil anything in III but he’s VERY key to the whole conclusion of this trilogy.

Ahh yes, he’s the one who takes Luke to Tantoonie. A 10 second scene, which would have worked just as well if Obi-wan had been missing from the entire PT and appears just for this express purpose. And why is it important – because it relates directly to his role in ANH. Nothing to do with the PT.

But ofcourse, why are we arguing about Obi-wan? I would prefer a movie which focuses more on Obi-wan than Anakin anyway.

He’s also more important to the story than Vader in Epi 4 and just as key as Vader as a ghostie in Epi. 5 and 6.

His role is significant in ANH, though he’s not the main heroic character (that’s Luke) and Vader is the main villain. Apples and oranges. That said he is totally a tertiary character in ESB and ROTJ.

If you ‘demanded’ I choose who a ‘single main character’ is I might say Anakin for the PT, BUT I also might say Palpatine in that he’s really more the whole center of the entire PT tragic ‘Galaxy falls’ plot than anyone else by far, despite not having as much screen time as other characters.

Palpatine suffers no character development during the PT. The story calls for him to be pulling all the strings, and he certainly is the main villain, but he’s a tertiary character at best, hiding behind Maul and Dooku. He’s not the focus of the PT however, which is Anakin, which is why we follow Anakin from a 9 year old kid to a 19 year old whinny teen to a confused and stupid 23 year old. No other character gets even remotely the same treatment.

All I was saying is that’s inherently a lame ass charater. Sure I could think of a way to make him cool and one of the main characters. I could do the same with oh say... damn near anyone in the film.

Leia was a senator too, or atleast a ‘member of the imperial senate’. I don’t see anything lame about being a Senator besides.

Sure you can make anyone in the film the main character. Obi-wan and/or Organa were simply my picks.

You simply saying ‘it could be better’ isn’t backing your claims up at all. Same as I didn’t just back up mine, but you’re the one making this point really.

Better is a point of reference. Some people actually like the PT afterall.
The problem with having Anakin, or anyone who appears in the OT as the main character in the PT, is that it’s very hard to reconcile with all the backstory and character traits in the OT with the PT without contradictions. See Anakin and Yoda for examples. Having these as secondary or tertiary characters would work though, because you don’t have to go too much into detail about them. So far in the PT the Palpatine character has worked, precisely because he’s not the main focus. (Expect this to change in ROTS).

Then again you don’t want to a character which completely disappears between the PT and OT, because that just raises questions. Obi-wan is a good candidate because he disappears as a main character pretty quickly into the OT. I choose Organa because I like the idea of someone passing the torch the their offspring to fight. It allows enough of a connection between the two trilogies, and because nothing of Organas character is given away in the OT (except that he was significant in the past) we have a clean slate to work with.

What you described is what happens in the actual trilogy. All except where you add the name ‘Organa’ and that Padme lives -for no reason at all.

The events of any good vs evil plot follow a predictable storyline. I just changed the main characters.

Padme lives for a while so the Leia remembering her mother and Luke not makes sense.

I could say ‘What if Chewbacca was pivitol to winning!?’ People dig Chewy so it’s a good idea right?
No. It’s nothing. It’s not an actual story idea.

Chewy in the PT is a bad idea. Once again, how to you reconcile his character in the PT and in the OT? It’s difficult to do. Better to start with as clean a slate as possible.

Hell... just ‘cuz his home’s on Alderaan, why does that mean HE blew up on it?

He could be off somewhere helping the rebels

It’s his home planet (a). He called Obi-wan to Alderaan so it makes sense that he would be there (b ). If he hadn’t been killed we would have seen him at Yavin ©.

‘Curiosity’? No. That’s really trying to downplay the actual feelings most fans had about wanting to see Anakin fall and become Vader, but at least you change your position that people didn’t want to see it at all.

Changed my position? No. I simply disagree that Anakin has to be the Main heroic character in the PT. The story of his fall could have been told far better if he was a secondary or tertiary character IMO.

Why? First off ‘cuz you didn’t say you’d change anything else in that trilogy so Luke hooking up with the Emp is totally out of character and just sounds dumb.

Luke out of character how? Luke was never portrayed as a goody goody two shoes…The Temptation to the dark side was REAL, the tension was real. Luke could have given in, he almost does… Compare this scene to the Dooku tempting Obi-wan scene in AOTC. No tension there, because Obi-wan is a goody goody two shoes.

Now if you add/change several things to change the way Luke’s Sithness progresses than yeah... I might say that it works.

Seems like you underestimate the power of the dark side to trap and ensnare. That’s what the PT does to you. There was no need to change anything about Luke’s past for the scene not to work.

Remember most people love Empire Strikes Back as their fav or 2nd fave and it had a dark ending.

Dark, hardly. The good guys escape, Vader is unsuccessful. Luke doesn’t turn evil, or even die. He is rescued and rejoins the rebellion. Even gets a new hand. ESB is a favorite because it has a real sense of dramatic tension and foreboding, not because evil triumphs.

Tragic ending doesn’t have to be bad. Gladiator died. Braveheart died. Luke could have died in RotJ if it was written well but I think it was better to have Luke win and be the hero Jedi.

Gladiator achieved something. Braveheart likewise. Neither turned or became evil, they were martyrs. Luke could have died in ANH after destroying the Death Star as well. In ROTJ, Anakin/Vader dies, so why should Luke die too?


I’ll say it again.... 1-3 is about Anakin’s rise/fall and Palpatine’s greater rise, and the fall of the Jedi, etc...

And 4-6 is about Luke being the ‘New Hope’ and the rebellion in general finally beating the Emperor’s Empire while Luke beats Vader.

Lucas recently released a trailer for the entire 6 episode saga. Anakin/Vader is the main character throughout. Remember that prophecy again?

Anakin is NOT a the central character in 4-6. He’s hardly in most of it ‘cept for a fight with Luke and till the end of Jedi.

Hardly, Vader is a main character throughout the OT, playing the villain to Luke the hero.

The ‘rise’ and ‘fall’ part is 100% only in the PT.

The ‘redemption’ part you add as if all three are equal is NOT equal at all.
The Prophecy, you forget the prophecy! Lucas said so himself, even in the ROTJ DVD commentary.

It’s only at the very very end of Jedi that Vader sees Luke getting shocked up and decides to switch sides and toss the Emp.

They are all equal. Rise – fall – redemption. Simple no?

Spoiler alert: AFAIK, it is revealed in ROTS that Anakin/Vader is already planning to kill/overthrow the emperor.

That’s a key moment in the film but it’s not the whole point of that film and it’s certainly NOT the point at all in A New Hope or Emp. Strikes Back.

I get the feeling that after watching the PT and seeing Vader in ANH and ESB we will just see that shell of a sad sad man who lost everything and has nothing now to live for, being forced to do his evil deeds by the emperor and haunted by his own past. Hardly vader…

Vader is just a cool bad guy in A New Hope. No depth or story at all.

Ruins the point of the PT huh…. I mean if the PT doesn’t give Vader any depth or character, Lucas must really have failed.

That’s just wrong. It’s simply NOT what the plot/story of Epi 4-6 actually is.

It’s the prophecy time again!

It does make that revelation weak to the audience if you know the PT before you see ESB, but that doesn’t not make it a shocking event for LUKE.

Shocking for Luke, yes. Shocking for the audience, no. Important enough to make a whole movie about it? No. We already know Luke is Vader’s son from ROTS, so the rest is just like – get on with it already.

But it is better for the audience to ‘also’ be shocked so I’d suggest kids first seeing any SW films see the OT first. Then quickly see the PT as fast as they can before they turn 7 and see through all the garbage in it.

Why would anyone watching a Trilogy Labeled 1 to 6 in the order 4,5,6 – 1,2,3 ? Maybe Lucas will print warnings on all the DVD instructing viewers of the correct order, but I doubt it.
Yet another reason why the main characters in the PT and OT should have been different. Now with the story following the Vader Arc through six episodes, it makes sense to watch it 1-6.

[Veer]

Can a Mod please delete post #17 of mine??

I tried to edit it just to write it a little more clearly but it wouldn't let me??

So post #18 is what I wanted to post.

Sorry for two looong almost the same posts. And then this one too. Yeesh

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can use the edit post button the replace one of your posts with N/A or something.

[azryan]

Veer,

As I wrote -"I tried to edit it just to write it a little more clearly but it wouldn't let me??-"

I think it was 'cuz I took so long editing it that was the problem. It wouldn't 'take' it.

I then logged out and then back in and the 'edit' button wouldn't even show up then.
I really tried to edit it myself.

I've been able to edit other posts of mine no prob. so it's not like I didn't know how to do it.

If the mod wants they can delete my post #19, this post #24 and Veer's post #23 telling me to do what I'd already said I did do.

Just to clean up all this useless mess in here.

[azryan]

The Veer/azryan debate...

I wanted to make Veer’s comments in BOLD but the options button doesn’t work for me so his comments are in Quotes and mine are not.

Hope that’s clear enough for people who can read books.


Veer wrote -
“-You need to open your mind that pivotal, grand and epic events can take place between the fall of Anakin and the events of ANH.-“

Uh... I DID.
I said more than once that damn near ANY idea could work and be cool if written right. I won’t say it again.

You simply saying ‘it could be cool’ isn’t a story though. You want that Bail Organa as lead character story? Fine. Go write one and everyone here can tell you if you wrote a cool one or not.

Without specifics I was just saying that there’s inherently less potential there for a grand epic tale and I was specifc as to why I thought that.

And please stop telling me to open my mind and/or claiming that I can’t see the possibilities. My words prove you are wrong about that.

“-Well, take ESB for example. What grand, epic, pivotal event occurred?-“

You’re right. It wasn’t epic. That makes it ‘not epic’. We AGREE on that.

It was a great film for other reasons that you mentioned. Again... AGREED.

I simply feel that an inherently more grand, epic tale of the fall of one of the main bad guys in the OT and the father of two of the main heroes of the OT is the better story to tell.

Also mentioning the plot of the ‘middle film’ of a trilogy is not a great example for three full films centering around a character only mentioned in the OT.

“It’s the MAIN plot point. Remember the whole prophecy thing?-“

No. Again... it’s not.

The prophecy is not at all key to the whole downfall of the Jedi, rise of the Emperor, etc..

“-Not to mention who destroys the Droid control ship in TPM.-“

That’s insignificant to the whole MAIN plot of the trilogy. And just proves how pointless that film was.

Here’s another point in my defense... You say Anakin’s rise/fall is the main plot point... look at the TITLES of the movies and you’ll see that they show that it’s Palpatine that’s really the key to the whole plot.

The Phantom Menace -the phantom menace is Palpatine. The title doesn’t refer to Anakin in any way at all.

Attack of the Clones -Palpatine commanded Dooku to create the clone army. Palpatine controls and leads these clones. Again... nothing at all to do with Anakin.

Revenge of the Sith -the ‘revenge’ plot here is Palpatine’s plot alone. Anakin becomes a Sith and becomes the third ‘pawn’ under Palpatine to help carry out Darth Sidious/Paplatine’s plot.

More screen time? Anakin.

Main plot of the trilogy? Palpatine’s plan NOT Anakin’s rise/fall.

I could prove it more but I’d spoil Epi. III events for people who didn’t see it yet.

The Maltese Falcon was the main plot point in the film The Maltese Falcon. It wasn’t even a person, nor in the film for more than a few minutes at the end.


You said some things about Obi-Wan from Epi. III that you haven’t read/see. They are still wrong but again... don’t want to spoil Epi. III for anyone.

“-But ofcourse, why are we arguing about Obi-wan? I would prefer a movie which focuses more on Obi-wan than Anakin anyway.-“

Again... the three films DID focus on Obi-Wan as much as Anakin. It’s just that Anakin did more exciting stuff but Obi-Wan’s in it as much as Anakin.

Your comment about me ‘reaching’ because Leia was in Epi. 4 before Luke doesn’t work.
1- ‘cuz Leia didn’t accomplish much that was key to the plot. Obi-Wan in the PT does far more.

2- Leia is not key at all to the victory over the Emperor/Vader. Obi-Wan is as pretty fairly key to Anakin’s fall.

“-His role is significant in ANH, though he’s not the main heroic character (that’s Luke)-“

Good. That’s what I said though.

“-and Vader is the main villain. Apples and oranges. That said he is totally a tertiary character in ESB and ROTJ.-“

Tertiary means “third in place, order, degree, or rank.-“ I think you misuse the word here. Did you mean to just say he’s not significant?

He’s key to saving Luke’s life several times on and off planet. Luke first learning about the force, telling him some things about his father, sending him to Yoda, etc...

Vader is also key in nearly killing a few times, telling him something about his father, sending him to the Emperor.

It’s really terribly apples to apples in relation to Luke what they both do in the OT.

lucas has balanced Anakin and Obi-Wan’s life out very evenly through the entire 6 films.

“-Palpatine suffers no character development during the PT.-“

What???

He plotted the entire dastardly galactically evil plan and rose himself from mere useless Senator among thousands to single supreme Chancellor, to all controlling dictator Emperor.

“-He’s not the focus of the PT however, which is Anakin, which is why we follow Anakin from a 9 year old kid to a 19 year old whinny teen to a confused and stupid 23 year old. No other character gets even remotely the same treatment.-“

Obi-Wan’s life is show in about as much detail. Just Obi-Wan doesn’t do more than be a Jedi. Anakin happens to do some non-Jedi things.

Anakin’s life as Vader in the OT isn’t shown much because he doesn’t do much worth showing either. Obi-Wan fights many people. Vader kills several rebels and his own people. Very even.

And your stating ages for Anakin doesn’t mean anything IMO. We just see the specific three ages Obi-Wan, and everyone else is in the PT. Just diff. ages is all.

“-Leia was a senator too, or atleast a ‘member of the imperial senate’. I don’t see anything lame about being a Senator besides.-“

Was she? I musta forgot that. So? She was a ‘princess’ too.
You don’t see her do anything related to the Senate at all ever. Being a Senator is not cool.

That Mon Mothra chick heh in the OT and some other dude were Senators and commanded the rebellion.
If you’re gonna pick a Senator and make it cool by showing them do rebellion things those characters would be the ones to use.
I don’t see a cool story in that at all though but if you do then write it.

“-Better is a point of reference.-“

No it’s not. It’s a claim. If you described a story and said that’d be better then the story could be the point of reference. Or someone’s opinion on that story could be the point of reference.

You don’t have a story. You only have a claim it (a very raw, simple concept) is better.

Nothing in that simple concept is better than the plot of the PT.

“-The events of any good vs evil plot follow a predictable storyline. I just changed the main characters.-“

Exactly. You came up with nothing. You didn’t write a story. Nothing, but you claim ‘it’ would be better.

[azryan]

"-Chewy in the PT is a bad idea.-“

I wasn’t saying to do it. Don’t you get it? I’m saying it’s not actually an idea.

Plus you bother to say it’s bad.

It’s not ‘bad’. It’s not ‘good’. It’s nothing.

I actually bothered to list things as to why your idea wouldn’t ‘inherently’ seem to work well but noted that anything could.

You’re really pushing me.

“-Once again, how to you reconcile his character in the PT and in the OT? It’s difficult to do. Better to start with as clean a slate as possible.-“

Once again? Did you asked me thing before? I don’t remember that. I don’t need to reconcile anything. I didn’t invent a new story.

You’re the one who claimed to do that. It’s up to you to actually have a story and connect it to the OT.
I know it ‘could’ be done. I don’t think you can do it though.


When did Bail Organa call Obi-Wan to Alderan? I forget. Leia called Obi-Wan through R2-D2.

“-Luke out of character how? Luke was never portrayed as a goody goody two shoes…-“

Oh man. YES... he was.

He was a totally innocent kid. Smiley, nice, good all around. Not a foul word to anyone. And later as a Jedi he shows the stoic control and suppression of dark emotions like Anakin never could.

“-and later a the Temptation to the dark side was REAL, the tension was real.-“

Tension.. Yes. Temptaion to give into the Dark side? No

He did have a want to join his father but he wanted his father to leave the Dark side.
He got angry in the Vader fight in ESB but that’s was nothing. It wasn’t close to becoming a Sith and Luke hadn’t had the raining to control his emotions at the time. Anakin had LOTS of Jedi training when he killed all the sandpeople and later went to the Sith.

And you’re talking RotJ anyway... Luke was a Jedi (though technically still only had like 2 weeks training -more bad planning by lucas) in that and he went peacefully to Vader and the Emperor ‘cuz he felt good in Vader.

“-Seems like you underestimate the power of the dark side to trap and ensnare. That’s what the PT does to you. There was no need to change anything about Luke’s past for the scene not to work.-“

Comical and baseless. You don’t back up your claim with anything and I backed up mine that you’re wrong.

“-Dark, hardly. The good guys escape, Vader is unsuccessful. Luke doesn’t turn evil, or even die. He is rescued and rejoins the rebellion.-“

The good guys ‘barely’ escape and many more rebels die. The rebels gain no ground. Luke loses his hand and pretty much committed suicide not to be killed by Vader.

“-Even gets a new hand.-“

Ok.... I’ll chop off your hand and you’ll be glad to have it be a prosthetic replacing it???

If getting parts replaced by bionics is so great then he should chop off his other hand himself so he had a matching pair of droid hand!?

Vader is ‘unsuccessful’ in turning Luke, but Vader’s still on top leading the Empire under the Emperor.

“-ESB is a favorite because it has a real sense of dramatic tension and foreboding, not because evil triumphs.-“

I didn’t say people liked Empire because evil triumphs. That’d be stupid for me to say because the had already triumphed two movies earlier and were still on top at the end of ESB.

“-In ROTJ, Anakin/Vader dies, so why should Luke die too?-“

I dunno. You said it not me. I didn’t say Luke should die?

“-Lucas recently released a trailer for the entire 6 episode saga. Anakin/Vader is the main character throughout.-“

Ohhhhhh... Anakin is the star of the Sith trailer. I see. Well, then that proves that you’re right.
I mean movie trailers don’t just show the best action clips to get people to see a movie. They show what the main plot of the film (in this case all three trilogy films) are????

Yeesh.

“-Hardly, Vader is a main character throughout the OT, playing the villain to Luke the hero.-“

You’re just wasting my time. You try to contradict me but back it up with nothing or things that have nothing to do with my point or you contradict yourself..

We all know Vader was the villian counter to Luke the hero. Pointless.

It does NOT prove that Vader is the central character which was the thing you were trying to contradict from my quote.

Calling him ‘a main character’ contradicts yourself calling him the center character.

Plus we all know there are other key heroes and villians in the OT. Luke seems clearly the main good guy but Vader is the 2nd in command bad guy and the Emperor is certainly shown to be the main bad guy in RotJ.

“-The Prophecy, you forget the prophecy! Lucas said so himself, even in the ROTJ DVD commentary.-“

Ranting that word does NOT make your case. And you do it again later too! Enough.

Mentioning lucas’s name doesn’t either. Esp. when it’s easily shown that lucas doesn’t know what he’s doing or talking about. Chefelf’s lists prove that.

Maybe after you see RotS you’ll see that word in a new light. I already saw it when I saw Epi.I but for those who didn’t see yet read/see RotS I won’t say more.

“-They are all equal. Rise – fall – redemption. Simple no?-“

Jeez. NO it’s not as simple as you claim and I freakin’ spelled out exactly WHY already.

“-Spoiler alert:-“

IMO that’s not cool to put a spoiler in this. Now no one who hasn’t read/seen RotS who may want to read this debate will probably stop so YOU don’t ruin something from that movie. Uncool man.

Then again... doubt many are reading this crap anyway.

Plus you don’t even make a POINT in the spoiler you posted. What a waste.

“-Lucas must really have failed.-“

We can agree on that. It’s horrible what he’s done to destroy such a cool mythology.
Greed and self-delusion that he can do no wrong because he’s master of anything SW.
It doesn’t work that way.

If he had Luke put on a dress and marry an Ewok he’d probably say ‘I’m LUCAS, therefore my deeds are CANON!’

Now watch... he steals that idea.

“-Shocking for Luke, yes. Shocking for the audience, no.-“

Again you are just repeating what I JUST wrote? Why? Pointless.

“-Important enough to make a whole movie about it? No. We already know Luke is Vader’s son from ROTS, so the rest is just like – get on with it already.-“

The rest is like get on with it already? Huh?

The OT’s point is NOT that Luke’s Vader’s father.

But as I said... kids new to star wars should see the OT first. You get the shock along with Luke (and waiting till RotJ to know is Vader was lying or not) like we all did as kids.

Just because they’re labeled 1-3 doesn’t mean you have to see them before 4-6. It just means that they chronologically take place before 4-6. Nothing more.

“-Why would anyone watching a Trilogy Labeled 1 to 6 in the order 4,5,6 – 1,2,3 ?-“

Uh... duh... I explained that twice now. So you get the shock along with Luke (and waiting till RotJ to know is Vader was lying or not) like we all did as kids!

I’m sorry for you if you can’t understand that even after having it clearly explained to you now three times.

“-Maybe Lucas will print warnings on all the DVD instructing viewers of the correct order, but I doubt it.-“

Seeing as 5 of 6 DVD’s are already out I think your thought should be a bit more sure than a ‘doubt’.

That’s not a problem though. Kids seeing SW typically would have parents who’ve seen it who hopefully for the sake of their kids would have them watch 4-6 first so they don’t ruin the shock Luke gets.

But people I suspect most will be too stupid to think of that and let their kids start with Epi. 1.

There’s more important things parents stupidly do to the detriment of their children. This ain’t a big one of course but it stems from the same lack of forethought so many have.

[Veer]

You simply saying ‘it could be cool’ isn’t a story though. You want that Bail Organa as lead character story? Fine. Go write one and everyone here can tell you if you wrote a cool one or not.

I never said ‘it could be cool’, I simply said it would make for a better story of the events prior to ANH. Given how the back story of Vader now sucks, not to mention contradicts the OT, I don’t see it being an outlandish claim to make.

And please stop telling me to open my mind and/or claiming that I can’t see the possibilities. My words prove you are wrong about that.

You still make the mistake of viewing events and characters in the PT as the only way they can be portrayed.

I simply feel that an inherently more grand, epic tale of the fall of one of the main bad guys in the OT and the father of two of the main heroes of the OT is the better story to tell.

There still is no need for him to be the main hero in the PT, his story can be told (better) with him being a secondary character. You seem to fail to see that.

No to mention there is no such thing as an ‘inherently more grand, epic’ scale. The scene needs only to be grand and epic enough so that the story is well told. Since you brought up the movies Gladiator and Braveheart, you can look to those for examples.

Here’s another point in my defense... You say Anakin’s rise/fall is the main plot point... look at the TITLES of the movies and you’ll see that they show that it’s Palpatine that’s really the key to the whole plot.

And you can look at the posters/banners, not to mention trailers and Lucas’s comments to see that the story is about Anakin/Lord Vader.

Movies such as SW are set in a particular setting, historic or fictional, epic or insignificant. You seem to mixup and confuse the background plot of the movies with the story of the main character.

Again... the three films DID focus on Obi-Wan as much as Anakin. It’s just that Anakin did more exciting stuff but Obi-Wan’s in it as much as Anakin.

Now I begin to doubt if you’ve even watched the PT. We certainly don’t know half or even a quarter as much of Obi-wans character as we do know about Anakin. Obi-wan does far more ‘exciting’ things in AOTC than Anakin (what does Anakin DO in that movie really?) And I guess you could say that accidentally flying a spacecraft and winning a pod-race are more exciting than dueling Darth Maul, but I preferred the latter.

Your comment about me ‘reaching’ because Leia was in Epi. 4 before Luke doesn’t work.

You were reaching in implying that the character which appears on first (not the mention has the most screen time) has more of a role in the plot.

Tertiary means “third in place, order, degree, or rank.-“ I think you misuse the word here. Did you mean to just say he’s not significant?

*sigh*. In SW there is a single main character and villain, followed by a bunch of secondary characters, then a bunch of tertiary characters, and then a bunch of others.
For example in ANH, Luke is the main character, Han, Leia, Kenobi, Tarkin, are secondary, Jaba, Owen, Chewy are tertiary and then a whole bunch of ‘others’ such a storm troopers with speaking roles, Dr. Evazan, etc.
In ESB Obi-wan is a tertiary character, as he is in ROTJ.

On Palpatine: What???

He plotted the entire dastardly galactically evil plan and rose himself from mere useless Senator among thousands to single supreme Chancellor, to all controlling dictator Emperor.

No character development though, which is what I said. He is evil & cunning in Part I, he is just as evil & cunning in Part 6.

Obi-Wan’s life is show in about as much detail. Just Obi-Wan doesn’t do more than be a Jedi. Anakin happens to do some non-Jedi things.

Anakin’s life as Vader in the OT isn’t shown much because he doesn’t do much worth showing either.

Once again your imagination fails you. Obi-wan certainly does a lot of things we aren’t shown . He certainly doesn’t warp into existence at the age of 24 or whatever he is in TPM. The two – Anakin – main hero, then Vader – main Villian, and Obi-wan – a secondary character in 4 out of 6 movies, and a tertiary character in the remianing 2 are hardly equal.

And your stating ages for Anakin doesn’t mean anything IMO. We just see the specific three ages Obi-Wan, and everyone else is in the PT.

Anakin’s ages are shown because they are significant events in his life, and the movie is afterall his story. Part I – his discovery (not to mention destroying the control ship and meeting his future love for the first time). Part II – the beginnings of his fall (not to mention the death of his mother, and him getting married), and Presumably Part III – when his fall is complete. It’s similar to Luke in the OT, ANH : learning about the force, ESB – facing his father/Vader, ROTJ – becoming a Jedi.
No other character, not even Obi-wan comes close to such.

This post has been edited by Veer: 16 May 2005 - 04:18 AM

[Veer]

On Leia: Was she? I musta forgot that. So? She was a ‘princess’ too.
You don’t see her do anything related to the Senate at all ever. Being a Senator is not cool.
{snip}
If you’re gonna pick a Senator and make it cool by showing them do rebellion things those characters would be the ones to use.

LOL, so now you admit that what a character ‘is’ is not so important as what a character does. Glad you had that revelation.
Though it should be mentioned that it was you (once again unable to break from the Lucas frame of mind) who assumed Organa would be a ‘senator’ and therefore automatically ‘not cool’. All I said was “…We know from the OT that Obi-wan severed as a general for Organa in the Clone Wars, we also know that he raised Leia, and was a member (probably a prominent one) in the rebellion. He's probably a King, or Prince (at the time of the PT)…”

You came up with nothing. You didn’t write a story. Nothing, but you claim ‘it’ would be better.

It could hardly be worse. I believe I can write a better story of the PT using Obi-wan or Organa as the main character and still tell the story of the Clone Wars, fall of the republic, rise of Vader, and beginning of the rebellion better than Lucas did with Anakin.

I actually bothered to list things as to why your idea wouldn’t ‘inherently’ seem to work well but noted that anything could.

You haven’t – all you said that Organa as a character would be ‘uncool’, while holding onto the belief that any story without Anakin as the main character would not be grand or epic.

When did Bail Organa call Obi-Wan to Alderan? I forget. Leia called Obi-Wan through R2-D2.

From Star Wars:
Leia: “Years ago, you served my father in the Clone Wars; now he begs you to help him in his struggle against the Empire. I regret that I am unable to present my father's request to you in person; but my ship has fallen under attack and I'm afraid my mission to Alderaan has failed. I've placed information vital to the survival of the rebellion into the memory systems of this R2 unit. My father will know how to retrieve it. You must see this droid safely delivered to him on Alderaan. This is our most desperate hour. Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi; you're my only hope.”

Of course Leia could be referring to Vader, but I doubt it.

On Luke: Oh man. YES... he was.

He was a totally innocent kid. Smiley, nice, good all around. Not a foul word to anyone. And later as a Jedi he shows the stoic control and suppression of dark emotions like Anakin never could.

Now I wonder if you’ve actually watched the OT.

“You must unlearn what you have learned.”

The good guys ‘barely’ escape and many more rebels die. The rebels gain no ground. Luke loses his hand and pretty much committed suicide not to be killed by Vader.

{snip}

Ok.... I’ll chop off your hand and you’ll be glad to have it be a prosthetic replacing it???

If getting parts replaced by bionics is so great then he should chop off his other hand himself so he had a matching pair of droid hand!?

Vader is ‘unsuccessful’ in turning Luke, but Vader’s still on top leading the Empire under the Emperor.

Sounds a bit Like AOTC doesn’t it? The good guys walk into a trap, get caught, are almost killed, Skywalker loses a limb… but then they are saved and can try again. Was the ending of AOTC particularly Dark, everything going to hell, a real evil triumphs sort of thing? Was the whole movie such? Hardly.

And what was the point of this entire diatribe? That ‘Dark’ or having the main heroic character turn evil makes for a ridiculous hard and convoluted way to tell a story. Far better to have to have the hero take a few blows but remain true to himself at the end.

Ohhhhhh... Anakin is the star of the Sith trailer. I see. Well, then that proves that you’re right.
I mean movie trailers don’t just show the best action clips to get people to see a movie. They show what the main plot of the film (in this case all three trilogy films) are???? [b]

The trailer was, as I mentioned, for the entire saga – episodes 1-6. I’ve seen it a couple of times, but can’t find a link.

[b] It does NOT prove that Vader is the central character which was the thing you were trying to contradict from my quote. Calling him ‘a main character’ contradicts yourself calling him the center character.

Vader is the only main character who plays a prominent role in all 6 episodes. His role in the OT enhanced by the new knowledge we have of his back-story. Particularly his plans to overthrow the emperor from day 1 and his weakness for his family members. In the OT itself Luke is Vaders only competition for the ‘central character’ of Star Wars, with the PT now included Vaders story greatly supersedes Lukes.

Mentioning lucas’s name doesn’t either. Esp. when it’s easily shown that lucas doesn’t know what he’s doing or talking about. Chefelf’s lists prove that.

They are Lucas’s movies, and while I may not agree or like his revised story, I do atleast recognize what he has made. All the better to criticize him.

On ‘Rise – fall – redemption’: Jeez. NO it’s not as simple as you claim and I freakin’ spelled out exactly WHY already.

No you haven’t. All you’ve said that Vader killing the emperor (and thus fulfilling the prophecy) to save his son was not the point of ROTJ, which it most clearly is. And that ‘Vader is just a cool bad guy’ – which he was until the PT was made. Now he’s just a sad, delusional and overly emotional man behind a mask. *sniff sniff*

And Vader saying ‘join me I’m your pops’ is the only thing in Empire that adds anything to Vader and that’s just one (albeit shocking at the time) line.

He also asks Luke to join the him, so they can rule the galaxy together, presumably in place of the Emperor (because of that entire rule to two that Lucas made up). His ‘new’ conversation with the Emperor in ESB is interesting as well.

On Vader fulfilling the prophecy: That’s just wrong. It’s simply NOT what the plot/story of Epi 4-6 actually is.

But it is the plot of the entire saga.

You’re wrong that Vader being Luke’s father is ‘the major plot point’.

hmmm…. So lets say hypothetically, since it’s not a major plot point, we just do away with it. Vader tells Luke some random mumbo-jumbo like ‘The sky is blue’. Luke falls and Leia rescues him. Han Solo is taken to Jaba. What was the whole point of the movie? – oh ya, now it has none.


It does make that revelation weak to the audience if you know the PT before you see ESB, but that doesn’t not make it a shocking event for LUKE.

You seem to not realize what it actually means to watch a movie. Now, before the PT, nowhere in ANH is it given away, or even hinted that Vader is Luke’s father. The FIRST inkling we get that Vader = Anakin is when Vader himself says it. Now with the PT, an audience watching in order Ep 1-2-3-4-5, will not only know that Vader = Luke’s father in the end of ROTS, they will also know it a second time at the beginning of ESB when Vader talks to the Emperor. The dramatic tension the scene creates, and builds up too is gone, not because Lucas has already told his audience, but because he told it twice already! The only point for the audience now is ‘what will Luke do when he finds out’, which is hardly as interesting as the original drama. Especially since Luke does nothing but react in a predictable way of shock and disbelief. As the audience, we are no longer empathizing with Luke, knowing only what he knows, seeing the world through his eyes. Instead now, since we know something Luke doesn’t, we see things through Vaders POV, or at any rate one step back from Luke’s.

The OT’s point is NOT that Luke’s Vader’s father.

The OT maybe not, but ESB most definitely.

IMO that’s not cool to put a spoiler in this. Now no one who hasn’t read/seen RotS who may want to read this debate will probably stop so YOU don’t ruin something from that movie. Uncool man.

Ahhh, but it’s not really a spoiler is it? We already know that both Luke and Obi-wan end up on Tantoonie. How difficult is it to put 2 + 2 together. Plus I could have revealed that Obi-wan and Vader have a huge duel at the end of ROTS, in which obi-wan slices several of Vaders limbs and takes his light saber, while escaping unscathed himself. But I won’t.

Just because they’re labeled 1-3 doesn’t mean you have to see them before 4-6. It just means that they chronologically take place before 4-6. Nothing more.

And the events of The Godfather II take place after The Godfather… ummm. No.

But people I suspect most will be too stupid to think of that and let their kids start with Epi. 1.

Whatever.

[azryan]

Forget it. This is ridiculous.

You're just being a jerk now.

I asked you to NOT insult me with the 'not openmined/no imagination' crap and you f'in' reply to that by doing it again!? Then you do it later on too!!

Piss off.

Then you tell me you don't think I've even seen any of these films!?That's just being a stupid and a punk.

I disagree with all of your points in this debate and we'd only be going in circles anyway to keep this going. I'm done with you.

Feel free to have the childish last word or whatever you want.

[Dark_Sith]

The Prequels needed to be about Anakin. Otherwise we wouldn't have a clue where Vader came from.