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What is everyone's beef with Return of the Jedi?

#16 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 03:19 PM

One word: Ewoks. RotJ has a lot of problems, but I can cope with just about everything else - Han's sappy dialogue, Luke and Leia being siblings, even 'from a certain point of view'. But the Ewoks... they're teddy bears, for God's sake. How can anyone take the Endor battle remotely seriously when the Empire's 'best' troops are being slaughtered by a bunch of cuddly little teddies with slingshots and wooden spears? Every time they're onscreen it's like watching a cartoon aimed at seven-year-olds.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#17 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 03:30 PM

"And then Ewoks begat Jar Jar..."
Flying Ferret

Battle for the Galaxy--read the "other Star Wars"

All I know is I haven't seen the real prequels yet.
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#18 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 05:48 PM

In response to the original question.
I don't hate ROTJ, I just think its not as good as the previous films.
Jabba's palace was a prelude, and it didn't really tie in to the overall story of the thing - and the plan to bust Han out of there was quite feeble.
The performances were weak - Carrie Fisher was on drugs, Mark Hamill disagreed with the script and thusly was unable to give a solid performance and Ian McDirmid's Emperor was anything but imperious.
The Ewoks were... gratuitously cutesy - and having the made-for-children toy teddy bears in the same movie as the perversion of Jabba's palace was just wrong. The characters were heavily mucked around with because George was not in a very good emotional state at the time and really shouldn't have been working. The Death Star was a re-hash, the buildup of tension on most of the story threads save Luke and Vader was poorly done.
That's not to say that the space battle wasn't a brilliant piece of technical wizardry, or the final confrontation between Luke and Vader wasn't excellent - just that the movie isn't really great.
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Posted 10 May 2005 - 06:38 PM

Here are a list of reasons I do not like ROTJ. There ARE elements that I like, that make the film semi-classic.

1. Carrie Fisher was on crack. This made her acting of terrible quality, when she had full potential to act in better ways. I know she struggled with bipolar disorder, but it is no excuse.

2. Harrison Ford didn't care anymore, and the Han Solo we knew was gone. In my mind, I just believe that Han didn't survive the carbonite.

3. Luke Skywalker seems like a totally different character from when he was in the other two movies. In this movie, its like we don't even KNOW Luke anymore. People do change in time, but Luke changed way too much.

4. Obi-Wan Kenobi appearing as a ghost and talking with Luke, and walking around like he was still living. This would have been ALRIGHT for a few seconds, but it was dragged out to be ridiculous.

5. The droids should not have been on Endor.

6. The Ewoks should have been Wookies.

7. Leia should NOT have been Luke's sister. In the version in my mind, after Han died, Luke and Leia begin their relationship, and Luke's sister is a new character that is introduced. Luke has liked Leia ever since he layed eyes on her... this shouldn't have been thrown away.
--------

Here are some classic elements of the story:

1. Princess Leia in the bikini. This is classic. She had a great body back then, and this served as an object of lust to many SW fans, and still does.

2. The lightsaber fight.

3. The Emporer.
SecretShadow (SuperShadow's main adversary)

Endor Holocaust
FIND OUT THE TRUTH
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#20 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 07:01 PM

Most people, like myself, born after 1983 love JEDI. This is because I don't remember a time where I didn't KNOW that Luke and Leia were sisters, where I didn't know that Ben told Luke this from a certain point of view, where I didn't like the Ewoks. I grew up with this information, was seemingly born with this information and these emotions. And so I basically can just view JEDI for its positives. Because I never expected anything from it. I never had an opinion about whether Leia should be the other, about whether Lando or Han should die. It was all there, and I couldn't change it, nor could I expect anything different from it. I loved it.

I'm not saying all people born after 1983 wiill love JEDI, or that all born before will hate it. I'm just saying that being born with it as fact helps.

However, the past two weekends I've watched EMPIRE and JEDI on Fox on Sundays (most of them anyway). They were on, so I said what the hell. I found that I liked EMPIRE more than I had the last time I watched it, found that it did resonate more emotionally with me, and found I had a great appreciation for the actual movie-making aspect of the film.

But I couldn't believe when I still felt giddy from ROTJ, something EMPIRE to this day never fully does for me. ROTJ just lifts me up into that galaxy far, far away as only it can. I'm not saying it's a better movie than EMPIRE. However, people forget how well-made it truly is from a technical standpoint (yes, even the Ewok scenes), how good most of the acting is (especially from Hamill, who rises to the occasion), and again, just how giddy it makes you feel while watching it.

Oh also, making another generalization here, the first ever hate I encountered for ROTJ was on the internet. Before that, almost all people I knew, Star Wars fans or not, no matter when they were born, really liked ROTJ. Only on the internet did I encounter this negative viewpoint. So take that for what you will.
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#21 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 08:36 PM

QUOTE (BinarySunset @ May 10 2005, 01:22 PM)
what really might bake some noodles is, would you be able to list all these "inferior" things about ROTJ (or any of the other films) if no one had said anything?


I know I've said all this before, but I saw JEDI on its opening day in Vancouver, and its first screening was in exactly one theatre, the Vogue downtown. So the fanatic crowd was not spread ut all over town; they were all in one theatre. Folks were cheering and screaming before the film started.

I won't say there were uncomfortable silences like there were at TPM: that was an uncomfortable film to sit through. In fact, most people seemed to like it. However, the whole resolution was a let-down to people who'd thought STAR WARS was going to go on forever, or at the very least for six more films. And there was a great deal of actual booing when Ben said "From a certain point of view."

So it wasn't the internet and time. People really did react negatively to JEDI right off the bat.

I didn't hate it, but it was a long time before I saw it again. I don't hate it now, like I hate TMP and would surely hate AotC if I ever saw it. I just see it as a serious blow to Lucas's credibility, as the first moment that he let on that he didn't have any more story to tell.

PS: Great posts as always.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#22 User is offline   Just another wretched fan Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 08:44 PM

if ep1 and ep2 turned out to be excellent films, would we still be bitching about ROTJ? or does the suckiness of the PT call unnecessary attention to ROTJ's flaws?
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#23 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 08:51 PM

Its possible.

However I found that from the beginning I really loved all of them equally, and as I watched them more and more, Empire stayed just as good, A New Hope got better, and I enjoyed ROTJ overall much less... still, every time I see the confrontation between Vader and Luke I enjoy it more and more.
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#24 User is offline   Just another wretched fan Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 08:55 PM

i agree, althought i can't deny that ROTJ was my favorite until i became a late teenager. Kids love ewoks and a happy ending.

I hid in the other room during the ESB duel b/c i was scared of Vader. Damn, i was a pussy when i was 7.

This post has been edited by Just another wretched fan: 10 May 2005 - 08:56 PM

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#25 User is offline   Failureboy2 Icon

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Post icon  Posted 10 May 2005 - 11:25 PM

Mnesymone,

You mentioned that Mark Hammil disagreed with the script for ROTJ and that his performance suffered because of it. What did Hammil disagree with? (or don't you know?)
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#26 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 01:45 AM

When he was told about the idea of The Other, he wanted a new character and perhaps a degree of mystery - he stated publicly before ROTJ that he thought if the princess was the other it would be a let-down... He was also in the dark about the whole 'father' plot and his personal theory was that Vader and Anakin were not the same person - that in the confronation between Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker (whom Ben thought was Luke's real father), Anakin was slain and Vader injured. As a result of this, his deliveries of the brother/sister and father/son lines had no heart to them.
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#27 User is offline   Casual Fan Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 02:56 AM

I had the odd experience of first seeing The Empire Strikes Back after first seeing The Return of the Jedi. I was in summer camp when ESB was release, and when I got back all my friends had seen the movie. I saw both movies first when I was a teenager, but by the time I saw ESB I pretty much knew what I was going to see.

Also, when I first heard that there was going to be a sequel toStar Wars, I thought it would be about the rebel assault on the Emperor's capital. In other words, something more like ROTJ. So on first viewing, I liked ROTJ better, though I liked both movies. Now that I am older and wiser, I prefer ESB, though I still like both movies.

I suspect that much of the angst on the internet is by major fans of The Empire Strikes Back who were disappointed by The Return of the Jedi. The two movies are very different in tone and storyline. Probably because of the unusual way I was introduced to both, I never felt this. I think that ROTJ is actually (and deliberately) closer to ANH in feel, and has been criticized for not going in new directions. I think ESB is the better movie of the two partly because its more subtle, and mainly because some of the cheesiness that infests the prequels begins to creep into ROTJ. The cheesiness factor is why people see ESB as better as they get older. Vader going or not going to Jedi heavan or Han not being killed just don't bother me.

I've never thought for a second that ESB was better than the original. Star Wars: A New Hope is not just a great sci fi/ space opera film, its one of the greatest movies ever made, period. The Empire Strikes Back and The Return of the Jedi are respectively great and very good sci fi/ space opera movies, however you can't understand either without first seeing ANH. The Phantom Menace is a poor to mediocre sci fi/ space opera movie. Attack of the Clones is just a mess. All IMHO, of course.

Someone elsewhere pointed out that Blade Runner was released the same year as Empire Strikes Back. This brings up an interesting point of comparison.
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#28 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 04:21 AM

QUOTE (Vwing @ May 11 2005, 01:01 AM)
Most people, like myself, born after 1983 love JEDI.  This is because I don't remember a time where I didn't KNOW that Luke and Leia were sisters, where I didn't know that Ben told Luke this from a certain point of view, where I didn't like the Ewoks.  I grew up with this information, was seemingly born with this information and these emotions.

So did I - I knew all these things long before I ever watched any of the films, and I still find them problematic. Plus, I never got to see anything but the first 'Special Edition' of RotJ, so I got treated to that godawful musical number in Jabba's palace as well.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#29 User is offline   BinarySunset Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 09:14 AM

QUOTE
Oh also, making another generalization here, the first ever hate I encountered for ROTJ was on the internet. Before that, almost all people I knew, Star Wars fans or not, no matter when they were born, really liked ROTJ. Only on the internet did I encounter this negative viewpoint. So take that for what you will.

QUOTE
So on first viewing, I liked ROTJ better, though I liked both movies. Now that I am older and wiser, I prefer ESB, though I still like both movies.

Thank you, Vwing and Casual Fan, you both proved the point I was trying to make. thumbsup.gif

I know I mentioned seeing the movie in 1983 when it premiered, etc. However, my point was more about: people enjoying the movie (whenever they happened to see it) and remembering it as being good or great, etc. And then reading all the discussions and dissertations and diatribes online (or wherever) and then, subsequently, becoming (IMO) overly critical of something they probably enjoyed, at first.

civilian_number_two, what can I say? you were in Canada as opposed to the US at the time you first saw ROTJ. Did folks there really have uncomfortable silences during ROTJ? I guess we here in "the Big Pretzel" (Philadelphia's nickname) just have more fun when we watch movies tongue.gif

SIDEBAR: Seriously, though, I lived for 5 years in Seattle and visited B.C. as often as I could. I actually saw TPM in Seattle and, all the fanboys and girls were there and, from what I remember, there were very few silences. They all still left the theater chattering about how "great" TPM was. My mother and I were both upset and it was Mom who first mentioned hating "Binks". So, I don't know. Perhaps folks in Vancouver are more aware than some of us in the States. blush.gif

Back on topic - I'll openly admit this as well:
I guess I'm the only fan who likes the "special edition" ending of ROTJ from a musical standpoint. Having classical training on the violin and piano and being a musical theatre performer for many years, I have to go on record (no pun intended) saying how much I loved and still love the new music (by Mike Post) on the ROTJ soundtrack. I actually play it as part of my regular music playlist. But then, I also love listening to the "outtakes" of the original Star Wars theme (courtesy of the SE Soundtrack) and deciding which takes I would've used, so... there you go.

I guess, for me, it's like Vwing said:
QUOTE
I still [feel] giddy from ROTJ, something EMPIRE to this day never fully does for me. ROTJ just lifts me up into that galaxy far, far away as only it can. 
wub.gif
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#30 User is offline   Primetime Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 09:37 AM

QUOTE (Mnesymone @ May 11 2005, 01:45 AM)
When he was told about the idea of The Other, he wanted a new character and perhaps a degree of mystery - he stated publicly before ROTJ that he thought if the princess was the other it would be a let-down... He was also in the dark about the whole 'father' plot and his personal theory was that Vader and Anakin were not the same person - that in the confronation between Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker (whom Ben thought was Luke's real father), Anakin was slain and Vader injured. As a result of this, his deliveries of the brother/sister and father/son lines had no heart to them.



Mark was right. I love the idea of Vader and Anakin being two different people.
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