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What is everyone's beef with Return of the Jedi?

#1 User is offline   Magee Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 10:59 AM

Alot of you, including Chef, say that ROTJ is hands down the weakest episode of the OT. I fuckin LOVE Return of the Jedi. Until I hit puberty it was my favorite. Im not gonna go into defending it until I hear why everybody doesnt like it as much as the others.
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#2 User is offline   Failureboy2 Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 11:13 AM

Yeah. For me it's a toss up between New Hope and Jedi, and I'm sure alot of people feel that way. Jedi has more powerful moments, and the technology (of the FX) is better, and Luke is really cool in it with his black outfit and green lightsaber, and the ending (even though some would say it's not what Lucas originally intended) wraps the story up nicely.

I could say what I don't like about Jedi, but I think some other people are about to explain it better than I could...
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#3 User is offline   Michel Orla Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 11:21 AM

1) I hard to get into a movie when one of the three main actors gives the worst acting performance of his life and admits he'd rather be anywhere but filming ROTJ. Not only that but Han Solo's pussied out completely. So we have a guy who wasn't into playing a character that had changed for the worst anyways. Not a good combo

2)Jabba's Palace goes for too much corny slapstick. Seriously, its like watching the Muppet's invade the Star Wars universe. I realize Lucas was trying to make up for the dark tone of ESB.....but how can I get into Han's rescue when there's so much distraction of "slapstick" Unfortunately, it carries over to later in the film on Endor

3)Stormtroppers run away from ewoks. Let me say that again...Imperial Stormtroppers.....the most feared soldiers in the galaxy, battle trained through the worst possible combat and conditions for up to ten years, RUN AWAY from 3 foot hairy midgets who's arsenol include spears and slingshots. Not blasters, slingshots and spears. The Emperor's best? How the hell did he ever rule the galaxy for twenty plus years with idiots like these on his side

4)Luke and Leia....."Somehow, I always knew" Is that why you kissed your brother in ESB? A horrible scene, one which should have never happened. Lucas took the cheap way out and made Leia Luke's sister. Anybody, Lando for God sakes, would've been a better choice. Who the hell said "The Other" had to be related to Luke anyway. It could've been anybody who possesed force talent, not another offspring of Vader. This also leads to Han's worst scene "What, you can tell Luke but not me?" Since when does Solo act like the jealous type? This certainly wasn't the guy who calmly said "I know" when Leia told him she loved him

Thats a few I can think of off the top of my head. While its by no means a horrible movie, it just pales in comparision to it's two counterparts. Lucas couldn't make up his mind if he wanted a romantic comedy or a serious action/adventure. The only time Return reaches Empires level is Vader's battle with Luke. No stupid lines, no slapstick comedy....just the Emperor and Vader trying to convert Luke

IMO its a matter of choice. If you like action than you prefer ROTJ..if you like strong character development and plot, then you prefer ESB...almost all agree though they like ANH for the same reasons

This post has been edited by Michel Orla: 10 May 2005 - 11:40 AM

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#4 User is offline   ernesttomlinson Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 11:33 AM

I'll start by saying that the action scenes are crap. Every one of them. (I'm not referring to the battle in space but to stuff that's happening on the ground.) There's the rescue of Han on Jabba's sail barge, where we learn that Luke's brilliant plan for the rescue is to wave his lightsabre around while armed men fail to hit him (and usually fail even to fire upon him) from ten feet away. And the lead-up is completely contrived in any case, relying upon coincidence after improbable concidence to get all of the heroes together in one place so that Luke can save them by not getting shot at. We get to see the most incompetent team of commandoes in the Galaxy blundering around with a shiny robot on Endor. We get to see a presumably well-drilled legion of stormtroopers run wildly about like chickens with their heads off in response to getting some rocks and blunt spears thrown at them. We see more stormtroopers surrender meekly to Han Solo without firing a shot because he's got one blaster and backup from a bunch of Ewoks many yards above his head. I could name other examples.

ROTJ is also the film that gave "poodoo" to the world and gave David Prowse the shaft.
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#5 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 11:47 AM

There are other threads on this, but the long and short of it is that EMPIRE wrote cheques that JEDI could not cash. The "other" hope had to be something interesting, not that Luke had a sister. Vader being Luke's father had to be interesting, and frankly it was about the hardest thing to do well, and it's so insipid that the only way to make it work was to keep crosscutting out of it to other action scenes. Even Ben's explanation of his lies is so underdone we might as well not have had the scene. Solo's capture, at least half the weight of the EMPIRE climax, is handled like the opening action scene of a Bond film. Lando's redemption is handled by ignoring it altogether, whereas we're all sure that in some early script he died a hero. Vader's "redemption" is handled in the most absurd way possible: he kills his boss, which was his PLAN, and for this we are to believe he gets into Jedi Heaven.

The stuff unique to JEDI, like the Second Death Star and the Ewoks, I'll leave to the other folks. What I hate most about JEDI is the degree to which it let down the setup of EMPIRE.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#6 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 11:50 AM

QUOTE (Magee @ May 10 2005, 10:59 AM)
Until I hit puberty it was my favorite.

With good reason. smile.gif
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#7 User is offline   rock_dash Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 12:35 PM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ May 10 2005, 08:47 AM)
Vader's "redemption" is handled in the most absurd way possible: he kills his boss, which was his PLAN, and for this we are to believe he gets into Jedi Heaven.


To be fair, his old plan involved living to take over after he killed his boss. He got to go to Jedi Heaven because he selflessly sacrificed himself in doing so.
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#8 User is offline   Magee Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 12:42 PM

I think that Vader killing the Emperor IS the Star Wars trilogy. Without that scene it is just the basic good v. evil plot of a saturday morning cartoon.

I like that Leia and Luke are brother and sister. Its creepy that they made out but not really bad. I dont think we have to be comfortable with everything that happens for it to be good.

In furtherance of that, Solo, I always felt WAS the jealous type. I never took the kiss in ESB between L&L to mean anything to the audience because I always felt that it was staged by Leia to bother Han, and not to actually mean anything to Luke. I also thought that Han's reaction to L&L talking on Endor was incredibly human and believable, how many of us have been in a situation like that. And something I might add, that is completely lacking in the PT, you know, believable human emotion. It is exactly the lack of scenes like that that make me curse the PT.

I love that scene between Luke and Ben and prior to that Yoda. Ben has to explain why he didnt tell Luke. I think it is an adequate explanation that he didnt want to hit Luke with to much. Plus Ben uses Luke's idolization of his father as fuel to drive Luke. So I think its good that he lied, and that this scene was an adequate reconciliation of it. Plus it also gives us the feeling of what the Jedi were like. This has been poorly let down in the new films, like everything else.

You guys are right about Lando's redemption not being explained. But that is more the fault of ESB then ROTJ. Lando is able to just pilot the Falcon away from the Rebel Armada after that, instead of getting arrested. ROTJ at least gave us the half assed explanation "I heard about your little maneuver in the Battle of Tanaab."

You guys are right about the Ewoks being able to defeat an "entire legion of (the emperor's best troops). Though I do disagree with the reverence you give stormtroopers. Except for their ability to defeat Jawas they seem pretty ineffectual for all 6 hours of the OT. (This might be a flaw in and of itself but it isnt limited to ROTJ).

I dont like posting long.
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#9 User is offline   StarWarsIsUs Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 01:08 PM

Later today, I will post my small piece on why ROTJ is crap. Until then, I'm going to look around the forums. Have no energy to write at the moment.
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#10 User is offline   BinarySunset Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 01:22 PM

QUOTE
What is everyone's beef with Return of the Jedi?

Magee, I agree with your asking this question and I hope you don't mind if I add something to it:

those who have listed such succinct reasons for why (you feel) the movie is inferior to Ep IV & V: did you feel all of this immediately after seeing the film for the first, second, or even third time? OR...

did you come to these strong dislikes after years of debating and conversing with other fans, which, btw also coincided with your growing up and having more life- and movie-going experiences?

Of course, I respect your opinions - film viewing is, after all, subjective. (I feel that I must reiterate this before someone gets carried away and starts "yelling") I'm just asking if you felt all this "back when".

With that question in mind, I realize that when I'm talking about the SW movies, I do so in the mindset of what I felt in the first and second times I saw the film (tho, admittedly with TPM, I was so disgusted I only saw it once in the theater and refused to pay to see it again). But I digress...

I understand that some of you may not have been alive, or did not yet have congitive awareness and you saw the films on tv when you were older. When ROTJ hit theaters; I had just turned 17. I saw the film the first time and was AWED by it! I applauded Darth Vader at the end - it didn't occur to us "back then" that he should or shouldn't be in Jedi Heaven. I liked that everything was tied together - it didn't occur to me or my friends "back then" that characterization wasn't on par with ESB. And yes, after the initial viewing, we liked the Ewoks. (and I'm NOT going to duck and cover - it's my opinion, remember... rolleyes.gif )

The things I didn't like during my 1st & 2nd screenings were: Han Solo did not actually die; Billy Dee had a "gut" on him now that he had a real paycheck and was eating 5 course meals; Carrie Fisher's acting hadn't improved AT ALL, and yes, I HATED the idea of Leia being "the other Skywalker".

Why? Not because of any endings in original drafts of the script or because of any suppositions about Lucas wimping out and not bringing in a new character. [The average 17-year-old in suburban Philly wasn't worried about all that, "back then".] I didn't like Leia being "the other Skywalker" because I didn't want her with Han Solo - I wanted her with Luke. Why? Simply because (and this might shock you) I was NEVER a Han Solo fan. I'm probably the only SW fan in the universe who does NOT like the guy, but... c'est la vie. tongue.gif

These were my feelings about the film in 1983 after seeing it the first 2 times. By the time I got to viewing 3 and 4, yes, I wished I could fast-forward through all the Ewok scenes and just watch the awesome scenes of Good vs Evil with Luke & Vader dueling it out (but I was in a theater, so I couldn't). Yes, by my 4th viewing, I was now livid about Luke and Leia being siblings and noticed that Harrison Ford looked more like Indiana Jones than Han Solo. And, yes, by the 4th viewing, I did feel a bit of letdown from some things set-up in ESB.

Now, I have tons more feelings about the entire OT, but those have come about after decades of discussion, debate, emailing, cell-phoning, reading countless articles and reviews; and just plain growing up and experiencing lots of other things that made me go back and rethink something or other.

Magee is curious as to why some of you dislike it. I've read other threads where you've "gone off" about why you feel it's inferior - and that's all fine. But to challenge you (and to paraphrase from The Matrix):

what really might bake some noodles is, would you be able to list all these "inferior" things about ROTJ (or any of the other films) if no one had said anything?

hmmmm whistling.gif

This post has been edited by BinarySunset: 10 May 2005 - 01:27 PM

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#11 User is offline   rangwe Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 01:22 PM

Great statement ernest, and as always, giant robot destructoid awesomeness from civnum2.

My big beef with RotJ is the disappointment of expectations. So much of it is aboslutely lifeless material that I find hard to watch. Mixed in with that wasteland are a few scenes that pack a good emotional and visual effects punch. Those are the scenes I usually fast-forward to. I put it down to Lucas being tired of the whole Star Wars world and wanting to get away from the attention it was focusing on him. Specifically, the things that irk me are:

The Jabba Show
The most important thing a gangster can possess is "credibility". It has to be clear at all times, regardless of how a gangster actually appears or acts, that you cannot cross the gangster without violent reprisal. Jabba demonstrates this most effectively in his "bargaining" for Chewbacca, or when he dumps his dancing girl into the rancour pit for resisting him.

But undermining this need for seriousness, Jabba's palace feels like the Muppet Show. The animatronix and puppetry are all overdone. It interjects a "cutesy" or "childish play" element that doesn't belong there. Contrast Jabba's "holding court" with the wedding backroom deals of The Godfather and you'll see what I mean.

Vito Coreleone would have made friends with the Rebel alliance, indebted Han's friends out of gratitude, and made a tidy profit off the whole affair. And, just to show there's no hard feelings, he'd offer to sell them some hot Bothan Spy information they might be interested in....

Yoda Runs Out of Robitussin
Just as Jackie Chan came crawling back to his master after being beaten in Drunken Master, Luke fulfils the noble task of returning to Dagobah to reunite in humility with his Jedi Teacher. It is at this time the Student is ready to take his training seriously, and learns what he needs to progress to the next level. So far, so good.

But taking a rather unexpected turn, you get Yoda giving the cliche'd last (mostly useless) words on the deathbed. Good thing Luke came back when he did! Who was going to train "The Other" mentioned in ESB, I wonder? Not only that, but Luke didn't need to come back anyway, as Yoda spouts off "no more training do you require." We then get the final indignity of Obi-Wan's ghost engaging in cheap justifications for his lying to Luke. It feels too much like Lucas is making a point of "tying loose ends up" to the audience, and is saying "I'm done with this, folks. Don't expect any more creativity from me on this."

How much more powerful would it have been to show a montage of Luke practicing through his final exercises, then passing a final test devised by Yoda? How about starting the film like this? Then, with a word of wisdom from Yoda and a twinge of Obi-Wan's presence signaling approval, Luke goes off to rescue Han....which ends up being the beginning of the main plot (rather than a snake's finger side trip) in the fulfillment of his destiny! What a pump up to start the movie on!

Day of the Ewok
The Empire has vast resources and a degree of organization the Rebellion cannot match. That's its strength. But it lacks the adaptability of the Rebellion, which has resources the Empire cannot imagine. Case in point, finding some aspect or trait overlooked by the rigid hierarchy of the Empire and using it to give them the edge they need to act. As such, the concept of an easily underestimated alien race proving an unexpected ally is fine at the base.

But the Ewoks don't work. They're too "cutesy" or "childish" to be taken seriously. Even the cannibalistic overtones of cooking Han are played for cheap laughs. Look at the scene from "The Emerald Forest", where the father faces the leader of the cannibal tribe and you see how deadly serious such a situation *should* have been in RotJ. Natives are not stupid and it reveals the lack of vision in a director to give them scenes in which they are played as bumbling and loveable clowns or pets.

The real Ewoks would have been Wookies and enlisted the "good spirits" to help them rescue their "captured leaders" (or some other objective they couldn't accomplish alone). In return, they'd have led the rebels down every secret path in the forest, revealing all kinds of forgotten mysteries and helpful tribal wisdom along the way. The freedom and vitality of the native ought to evoke awe and self-reflection.

Twisted Sister
I was expecting the identity of "The Other" to be Princess Leia. Its certainly hinted at in ESB. This single revelation would have been more than enough for RotJ. Whomever it turned out to be, the revelation and development of this person as "strong in the force" was something I was looking forward to.

But making Leia Luke's sister was over-the-top. It raises emotional specters that distract from the story. Not only does it ruin the perspective of certain scenes (Leia's torture at the hands of Darth Vader, her kiss of Luke on the hospital bed, etc.), it places Leia in an awkward situation. Shouldn't she be with Luke, confronting her Father (and her Destiny as "The Other") as well? If Luke fails his showdown test, who is going to train her? What I really don't like is that it places her in a position of helplessness, as someone to be *protected* because she can't fend for herself. That's not the Spirited Leia I idolized as a boy!

"The Other" would have been far better as an indicator of the future - as Luke's replacement should he fail, or as Luke's first Padawan (ugh, can't we just say "Pupil"?) should he succeed.

- rangwe
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#12 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 01:30 PM

Although I do like Return of the Jedi (Not as much as The Empire Strikes Back or A New Hope), there are scenes that I wish the movie would speed through. These scenes include:

1. Everything that occurs in Jabba's Palace.

2. All events on Endor prior to the team getting captured inside the shield generator bunker.

However, there are a lot of great scenes such as:

1. The arrival of the Emperor on the Death Star.

2. The whole sequence of the Imperial Shuttle dropping from the Death Star to a dark Endor landing platform. I love how there is an AT-AT walker there to transport Darth Vader. It's just a damn cool scene.

3. Every scene inside the Emperor's throne room between the Emperor, Vader, and Luke. I particularily like how the Emperor constantly mocks Luke.

4. The entire space battle above Endor.
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#13 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 01:36 PM

ROTJ has some wonderful moments in it. It also has the benefit of the momentum of ESB. It's still the worse out of the original three, I prefer it over any PT movie at this moment, though.
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#14 User is offline   Lord Aquaman Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 01:44 PM

I try to hate ROTJ, but it's very hard to do so, even with the 2004 super special edition DVD (one more reason to dislike Hayden Christensen). I kinda like the older, more confident if not necessarily wiser Luke and I think the action pieces were executed competently enough, though I've never been a big fan of Ian McDiarmid's Emperor; why couldn't they have gotten Clive Revill?

Still, it's head and shoulders above the PT.

This post has been edited by Lord Aquaman: 10 May 2005 - 01:44 PM

I am the Fisher King.

I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an obi-wan to go.
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#15 User is offline   BinarySunset Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 02:37 PM

QUOTE
I've never been a big fan of Ian McDiarmid's Emperor; why couldn't they have gotten Clive Revill?

I lurve you, Lord Aquaman! ITTTA - I was just mentioning this to someone over the weekend!

The only thing: don't hate poor Hayden for Lucas' diabolical actions. It's not his fault blushing.gif

PS - I also lurve that you use the "real" Aquaman as your avitar! I loved those old cartoons of Aquaman and Aqualad. wub.gif
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