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What is everyone's beef with Return of the Jedi?

#61 User is offline   Casual Fan Icon

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Posted 08 October 2005 - 04:37 PM

QUOTE
When he realizes he has a son, and tells his son he is his father, this is where Anakin "pokes his head out" and begins an internal conflict with the THING that Vader is.


One of the ways that the PT ruins this is that the Anakin who would think for a minute, then spare Admiral Piett, just never appears. He comes close to being believable as a "good" character a few times in ROTS, but never a reflective one.
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#62 User is offline   Revan-47 Icon

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Posted 08 October 2005 - 06:34 PM

yes he does. in phantom, he wins the podrace, blows up the control ship, and is a pretty kool little kid.

in clones he is like a teenager, yet he still holds that sense of the good guy. and his character comes through best in sith. i reallly liked anakin in rots. i was acually rooting for him to not fall to the darkside.
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#63 User is offline   Smashman Icon

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 03:46 PM

BAH! I'm so frustrated.

The PT contradicts everything in the OT.

I hated Anakin in I and II (for different reasons), but I liked him in III.

However, Anakin and Vader just feel like two completely different characters.

Anakin Skywalker is Jake Lloyd and Hayden Christensen.

Darth Vader is a man in a black suit, with a black mask and has a respirator.

This post has been edited by Smashman: 09 October 2005 - 03:50 PM

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#64 User is offline   Patrick Bateman Icon

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 12:34 AM

I agree. The PT just contradicts everything the OT stood for. It is as if GL never even saw the OT let alone 'authored' the franchise.
One mistake is acceptable in three new movies, but more than twenty glaring errors ridiculous.
I believe that this started with ROTJ. Ewoks defeated armoured Temuera Morrison's with rocks and bow and arrows? Darth Vader forgetting how to block force lightening. Luke apparently never told by Yoda about the same ability?
Darth dying and reappearing as a twenty year old man?
I consider the first two as two parts of the same film ... the other four as movies set in the 'Star Wars' universe but that's about all. I consider them as canon as the Star Wars Holiday Special.
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#65 User is offline   DarthTherion Icon

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 02:39 AM

I decided to read this thread. Very entertaining. My scattered thoughts on the subject:

1) Wasn't Luke's plan to use Jedi mind tricks to rescue Han? That's not a bad plan at all -- it would have worked if Jabba wasn't resistant to the ability. How was Luke supposed to know that? His backup plan was to snatch a blaster and shoot Jabba. Pretty good backup! Just in case, he entrusted his lightsaber to R2D2 so that it would be around and wouldn't be taken from him if he was captured.

2) I was never bothered by Leia being Luke's sister, most likely because, as another poster mentioned, I grew up knowing this fact (I was born the same year ROTJ came out). It's true that ROTJ doesn't explore some interesting ideas suggested by ESB, but introducing a new character as the "other" would simply be too much for a movie that's meant to bring closure to the plot. It would also needlessly complicate the simplistic Star Wars plotline (like the prequels do).

As others have noted, Leia being Luke's *sister* lends alot more power to Luke's temptation at the end.

3) I'm really sick of hearing people talk about Luke not blocking force lightning like it's some kind of inconsistency. In that scene, the ability to block lightning -- and whether or not he was taught how to do it -- is IRRELEVANT. The point of the scene is that Luke throws away his weapon and refuses to participate in combat of any kind. If you think Luke should be standing there blocking lightning, you do not understand the scene.

4) Luke's temptation parallels Anakin's well. It looks like he is going to make the same mistake as his father until he decides to throw away his weapon.

5) Anakin's "reflective" aspect appears when he is standing on the balcony in AOTC, pondering whether or not he should discover what happened to his mother -- and in ROTS when he and Padme share that brilliant silent moment before he falls.

6) I don't mind admitting I like ewoks. Stormtroopers *are* the joke of the OT (they are mostly not clones by this point), and it's wonderful to see the galactic Empire get its comeuppance at the paws of teddy bears.

7) The new ending, with the music and the new scenes, is very well done.

8) There's no such place as "Jedi Heaven." Stop it with these silly Judeo-Christian projections. The ability to retain consciousness after death is a product of selflessness, which Vader displays in saving his son. I have made many long comments on this in other threads -- don't make me repeat myself.

And Xenduck, thanks for hitting us with some ol' school Joseph Campbell shit. Hero with a Thousand Faces is required reading for anyone who wants to understand Star Wars in terms deeper than, "A bunch of heroes fight evil!"
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#66 User is offline   Patrick Bateman Icon

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 04:56 AM

3) I'm really sick of hearing people talk about Luke not blocking force lightning like it's some kind of inconsistency. In that scene, the ability to block lightning -- and whether or not he was taught how to do it -- is IRRELEVANT. The point of the scene is that Luke throws away his weapon and refuses to participate in combat of any kind. If you think Luke should be standing there blocking lightning, you do not understand the scene.

Are you implying that Luke was some sort of Christlike figure who underwent torture unwarranted when all along he had the power of defence but simply decided not to call upon it??
What next? Luke Ghandi ... Dirk Theresa Starkiller.
Face it, it's a huge inconsistency, plain and simple

4) Luke's temptation parallels Anakin's well. It looks like he is going to make the same mistake as his father until he decides to throw away his weapon.

Anakin did not make a 'mistake' so much as follow no rational course of action ONCE in the entire PT. In fact he seemed to act as neery more than a pawn of whoever seemed to be within arms length at the time.
WOOOOHOOOOO!. I leave it at that

5) Anakin's "reflective" aspect appears when he is standing on the balcony in AOTC, pondering whether or not he should discover what happened to his mother -- and in ROTS when he and Padme share that brilliant silent moment before he falls.

Again, Anakin did not fall. His character had not been set up on anything even aproaching a level from which to fall ... or float ... or crawl or suffer motion sickness or ...


6) I don't mind admitting I like ewoks. Stormtroopers *are* the joke of the OT (they are mostly not clones by this point), and it's wonderful to see the galactic Empire get its comeuppance at the paws of teddy bears.


At the paws of any kind of bear would have been acceptable. At the end of sticks and tripropes is a different story.

7) The new ending, with the music and the new scenes, is very well done.

8) There's no such place as "Jedi Heaven." Stop it with these silly Judeo-Christian projections. The ability to retain consciousness after death is a product of selflessness, which Vader displays in saving his son. I have made many long comments on this in other threads -- don't make me repeat myself.

Vader does not appear after death. Anakin does, and therein lies the problem with the PT. THERE IS NO CONSISTANCY ... OF VISION ... OF MOOD ... OF THEME ... OF 'LAW' ... OF MOTION ... OF PHYSICS ... OF ANYTHING.
It was once famously claimed that with enough analysis it could be proven that an elephant could hang from a daffodil over a cliff face.
Perhaps.
With a thousand monkeys tapping a thousand keyboards for a thousand years however, it could never be proven that the PT is anything more than the limp results of a mastabatory three part emission.
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#67 User is offline   Zatoichi Icon

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 12:32 PM

Hey Bateman, just wondering if you have ever seen the original version of the OT. When you say that Anakin appears it sounds like you mean Hayden.

Actually, although the outcome of stormtroopers vs. Ewoks doesn't bother me as much as other people, stormtroopers weren't that bad (overall). In ANH when they board the Tantive IV, it isn't a standing battle they plow right threw. Stormtroopers on the Death Star is another story though. In ESB with the support of the AT-ATs they conquer Echo base. They also take over Cloud City, but are very shitty when it comes to shooting at anyone. In ROTJ they get thier proverbial asses handed to them. Actually, ROTJ was the only movie where any of the heroes get shot by a stormtrooper. It seems to me that whenever the stormtroopers fight a battle with the heroes in the same area, they totally suck ass. This was prevalent in all three of the OT movies.
Apparently writing about JM here is his secret weakness. Muwahaha!!!! Now I have leverage over him and am another step closer towards my goal of world domination.

"And the Evil that was vanquished shall rise anew. Wrapped in the guise of man shall he walk amongst the innocent and Terror shall consume they that dwell upon the Earth. The skies will rain fire. The seas shall become as blood. The righteous shall fall before the wicked! And all creation shall tremble before the burning standards of Hell!" - Mephisto

Kurgan X showed me this web comic done with Legos. It pokes fun at all six Star Wars films and I found it to be extremely entertaining.
<a href="http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cast/starwars.html" target="_blank">http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cast/starwars.html</a>
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#68 User is offline   Patrick Bateman Icon

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 10:26 PM

I'm confused. Aren't we talking about the fireside threesome of Yoda Obi and Anakin. Isn't that anakin and not Hayden???
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#69 User is offline   Zatoichi Icon

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 01:26 AM

Yeah, probably. Its this thing that I've done in my mind. I identify the one character as two completely sepperate entities (and I don't mean Anakin and Vader). So when they inserted Hayden into the OT on the Dvds I guess my mind played a trick on itself.
Apparently writing about JM here is his secret weakness. Muwahaha!!!! Now I have leverage over him and am another step closer towards my goal of world domination.

"And the Evil that was vanquished shall rise anew. Wrapped in the guise of man shall he walk amongst the innocent and Terror shall consume they that dwell upon the Earth. The skies will rain fire. The seas shall become as blood. The righteous shall fall before the wicked! And all creation shall tremble before the burning standards of Hell!" - Mephisto

Kurgan X showed me this web comic done with Legos. It pokes fun at all six Star Wars films and I found it to be extremely entertaining.
<a href="http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cast/starwars.html" target="_blank">http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cast/starwars.html</a>
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#70 User is offline   Patrick Bateman Icon

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 02:02 AM

I have a similar condition.
I see only two movies where others see six - seven if you count the Holiday Special and I see no reason not to.
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#71 User is offline   DarthTherion Icon

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 12:42 AM

QUOTE (Patrick Bateman @ Oct 15 2005, 05:56 AM)
Are you implying that Luke was some sort of Christlike figure who underwent torture unwarranted when all along he had the power of defence but simply decided not to call upon it??
What next? Luke Ghandi ... Dirk Theresa Starkiller.
Face it, it's a huge inconsistency, plain and simple


When Luke first arrives, he tells the Emperor, "Soon I'll be dead. And you with me." He went to the Death Star knowing that the rebel attack was coming; he didn't care. He had to confront his father -- period.

Luke is not overly concerned about his life. Attachment to life causes fear of death. And we all know where fear leads....

When he very nearly turns to the darkside, Luke throws away his weapon and refuses to take part in combat any more. This is what a Jedi should do. Do you think he should have ignited the blade and cried, "Bring it on, Palps!"?

Luke had an inkling that Vader's good side might come to his rescue...but he wasn't betting on it. He would have taken death over the darkside. That's why he's a hero.

This post has been edited by DarthTherion: 17 October 2005 - 12:44 AM

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#72 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 09:04 AM

alright, good to see an old thread back in action. really good debate, there are heros on both sides.

darththerion, i think you're spot-on in your last post. and, theredbaron, thanx for the kind words.
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#73 User is offline   Patrick Bateman Icon

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 01:16 AM

Wait a second ... if Darth had good still in him is this a battle between good or evil, midichlorians or conscience?
The fact is, Luke went in there with the aim of killing Palpatine THEN he decided mid fight to relinquish. THEN he changes his mind mid ass shocking (probably pissed at the fact that Yoda did not tell him about the force lightning) and looks to Darth or Anakin - I'm not sure who he is at this point as apologists insist he flickers between the two - for help.
He was not some hero fated for death. He changed his mind when it suited his cause.
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#74 User is offline   Smashman Icon

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 11:23 PM

It's still better than all the prequels combined.
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#75 User is offline   Revan-47 Icon

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 07:01 PM

Luke did what all of the jedi in the PT failed to do. He refused to fight. That is symbolic.
"Life is too important to be taken seriously."
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