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What is everyone's beef with Return of the Jedi?

#46 User is offline   diligent_d Icon

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Posted 11 June 2005 - 12:01 PM

I'm one of the few people on here that really didn't mind ROTJ at all (the original version). The acting in it was lightyears ahead of anything in the prequels, there was humor (and I'm not talking about Ewok humor), I was fine with the Emperor in this one, and the space battle was amazing.

I actually didn't mind Jabba either. When it comes down to it, I think the only problem I have with it is Lukes hair smile.gif and a couple of the Ewok scenes during the final battle.
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#47 User is offline   Casual Fan Icon

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Posted 12 June 2005 - 08:06 AM

I see that the gushers, having retreated from their contention that ROTS is better than either ANH or ESB, have made a stand around the more achievable objective of establishing that ROTS is better then ROTJ. In fact some are putting ROTJ at the bottom of their list of Star Wars movies, behind even AOTC.

That is really remarkable. Attack of the Clones was not just the worst Star Wars movie, it was one of the worst movies ever made, period. It kind of a cartoon or video game with some live actors, thrown together to make it seem like a live action movie, and a romance at that. To be worse than AOTC a movie has to make audience run from the theater screaming.

Poor ROTJ. I guess you could argue that ROTS is better if you didn't care about a movie having a coherent plot.
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#48 User is offline   Magee Icon

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Posted 05 July 2005 - 05:35 PM

QUOTE (Casual Fan @ Jun 12 2005, 08:06 AM)
I see that the gushers, having retreated from their contention that ROTS is better than either ANH or ESB, have made a stand around the more achievable objective of establishing that ROTS is better then ROTJ.  In fact some are putting ROTJ at the bottom of their list of Star Wars movies, behind even AOTC.

That is really remarkable.  Attack of the Clones was not just the worst Star Wars movie, it was one of the worst movies ever made, period.  It kind of a cartoon or video game with some live actors, thrown together to make it seem like a live action movie, and a romance at that.  To be worse than AOTC a movie has to make audience run from the theater screaming.

Poor ROTJ.  I guess you could argue that ROTS is better if you didn't care about a movie having a coherent plot.


Bravo Casual Fan. That is clear, concise and correct.
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#49 User is offline   julie123 Icon

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 02:20 PM

I used to think that I hated ROTJ, now I know that merely I dislike the film in comparison to the PT. The one thing that still gets to me though is the line "That name no longer means anything to me." I find myself, even now, shouting well it meant something to you in TESB, when you claimed that you were Luke's father. Unless Padme was having an affair with a Mr Vader, Anakin Skywalker has to be Luke's daddy.

The setting up of Vader’s split personality or redemption - he needed to be reminded that he was Anakin Skywalker – does not work. In A New Hope when Vader chokes Admiral Motti, for mocking his sorcerer ways, just why is Vader so pissed off when it is the Jedi who are being mocked? It has to be because it is Anakin (an Anakin who knows ‘himself’) who is alive and kicking inside Vader’s armour. Equally, with the “that name no longer means anything to me” line, Lucas was asking us to forget that 3 years ago it was Vader himself who spilled the beans about his real identity to Luke. What happened in the meantime to make him forget his former self; senile dementia?

I detest Lucas’s dishonesty in trying to make us believe that Vader had forgotten he once was a 'good man' and that it was therefore okay’for Vader to be redeemed. I never believed it then, and I don’t believe it now, that one good act (an act I believe was motivated by the same selfish reasons that made him turn to the dark side to protect Padme) earned him redemption and a place in Jedi heaven.
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#50 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 05:28 PM

julie, i am impressed by your insight into vader's duality, however, i find your views on the matter to be deplorably provincial. the story here is about anakin's redemption, not ressurection. so it is essential to realize anakin is very much alive (if not well) inside of vader. the name anakin represents the submerged portion of vader's psyche. it is part of his mythical heratige; like osiris in his custom-coffin, like ishtar in the netherworld, like jonah in the whale, the hero is not dead, but trapped, consumed, or (as luke points out) forgotten. luke sees the good, the conflict in vader, padme sees it, even sidious sees it; and through them, the audience sees it. vader, necessarily does not see it, it is repressed; which is why, in true neurotic fashion, he becomes all-too defensive when luke brings up the issue. yet, in a moment of clarity, the repressed portion breaks forward from the unconscious and returns to its true self.

further, it was not the act of saving luke in and of itself that redeemed vader, it was the revelation of right and wrong. the action taken was symbolic of his change of heart.
and anakin had accomplished countless good deeds before his fall, those most be accounted for also. and assuredly, the restored anakin would have become a force for good in the galaxy, given the chance. if good and evil are points of view, then the only point of view that matters is the one that sees all: the Force. the Force knew what was in anakin's heart and found him worthy, that concept is expressed to the audience by seeing his force-ghost.

This post has been edited by xenduck: 20 July 2005 - 05:28 PM

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#51 User is offline   julie123 Icon

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 09:44 AM

QUOTE (xenduck @ Jul 20 2005, 10:28 PM)
julie, i am impressed by your insight into vader's duality, however, i find your views on the matter to be deplorably provincial. the story here is about anakin's redemption, not ressurection. so it is essential to realize anakin is very much alive (if not well) inside of vader. the name anakin represents the submerged portion of vader's psyche. it is part of his mythical heratige; like osiris in his custom-coffin, like ishtar in the netherworld, like jonah in the whale, the hero is not dead, but trapped, consumed, or (as luke points out) forgotten. luke sees the good, the conflict in vader, padme sees it, even sidious sees it; and through them, the audience sees it. vader, necessarily does not see it, it is repressed; which is why, in true neurotic fashion, he becomes all-too defensive when luke brings up the issue. yet, in a moment of clarity, the repressed portion breaks forward from the unconscious and returns to its true self.

further, it was not the act of saving luke in and of itself that redeemed vader, it was the revelation of right and wrong. the action taken was symbolic of his change of heart.
and anakin had accomplished countless good deeds before his fall, those most be accounted for also. and assuredly, the restored anakin would have become a force for good in the galaxy, given the chance. if good and evil are points of view, then the only point of view that matters is the one that sees all: the Force. the Force knew what was in anakin's heart and found him worthy, that  concept is expressed to the audience by seeing his force-ghost.

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#52 User is offline   julie123 Icon

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 01:53 PM

QUOTE
QUOTE (xenduck @ Jul 20 2005, 10:28 PM)

julie, i am impressed by your insight into vader's duality, however, i find your views on the matter to be deplorably provincial. the story here is about anakin's redemption, not ressurection. so it is essential to realize anakin is very much alive (if not well) inside of vader. the name anakin represents the submerged portion of vader's psyche. it is part of his mythical heratige; like osiris in his custom-coffin, like ishtar in the netherworld, like jonah in the whale, the hero is not dead, but trapped, consumed, or (as luke points out) forgotten. luke sees the good, the conflict in vader, padme sees it, even sidious sees it; and through them, the audience sees it. vader, necessarily does not see it, it is repressed; which is why, in true neurotic fashion, he becomes all-too defensive when luke brings up the issue. yet, in a moment of clarity, the repressed portion breaks forward from the unconscious and returns to its true self.


Let a small town girl tell you, you are talking bull. I am well aware that the issue is about redemption and not resurrection; check my post, the resurrection thing is all yours. Jonah and the Whale’s etc, etc, redemptions all work because each story starts from a beginning of a journey until its completion. Therefore, by its end, the reader is convinced that each eventual redemption is right and necessary. This is not the case with Anakin Skywalker. How can someone who watched ROTJ in 1983 (as I did) be expected to know and what’s more believe that Anakin is alive inside of Vader, especially when the two previous films made a virtue of their separate identities? Luke’s evocation to Vader that he had forgotten his former self, was a signal that the rest of the action was going to be about the redemption of Anakin Skywalker and as chef as said before about Lucas “it is so obvious and poorly done that it fails on every possible level”

Yes, Luke does indeed see the ‘good’ inside Vader his ‘conflict’ but you are wrong to say that through him (and a character that did not exist then) the viewer also sees this. For six years we had lived with Vader as the epitome of absolute evil; we had seen him order the torture of what turned out to be his own daughter. Forced her to watch as her home planet was blown up before her very eyes, and force choke those who do not carry out his orders etc, etc. We are told that he has hunted down Jedi and personally killed 250 of them, that he took part in the murder of all those with force potential and brutally suppressed the galaxy for over 20 years whilst billions died. But suddenly just because Luke tells Vader that there is good inside of him, we the viewer are also expected to believe it??!! Sorry, this just did not work, this was very bad story telling on Lucas’ behalf because by this time in the story the viewer needed to recall Anakin/Vader’s good deeds for his/herself, not just be told that he was once a good man.

Your Freudian analysis therefore regarding Vader and his repression of his former self in light of the above is really out of place. However, if you consider your analysis to be correct, it’s a very convenient one isn’t it? Vader can remember that Anakin is Luke’s father and in doing so, they can rule the galaxy together as father and son but he needs a ‘moment of clarity so that the repressed portion can break forward from the unconscious and returns to its true self?’ Come on!!


QUOTE
further, it was not the act of saving luke in and of itself that redeemed vader, it was the revelation of right and wrong. the action taken was symbolic of his change of heart.

Vader did not have any revelations of right and wrong, the action was not symbolic of a change of heart, it was a plot device, it was in the script.

QUOTE
and anakin had accomplished countless good deeds before his fall, those most be accounted for also.

What are the countless good deeds that Anakin carried out before his fall that have to be accounted for? Was it his marriage that was against the Jedi Code? Was it the slaughter of women and children Tusken Raiders; was it the slaughter of the younglings? Was it force choking and making his wife desire an early death?

QUOTE
and assuredly, the restored anakin would have become a force for good in the galaxy, given the chance.

Anakin did indeed have an opportunity for good in the galaxy restored or not, he chose not to take it.

QUOTE
if good and evil are points of view, then the only point of view that matters is the one that sees all: the Force. the Force knew what was in anakin's heart and found him worthy, that  concept is expressed to the audience by seeing his force-ghost.

Hmm the same force that made Anakin and whom to bring back into balance, billions of innocent non-force users had to be slaughtered, is to be the arbiter of what is going on in Anakin’s heart? I think not. I will repeat again what I said in my last post, I detest Lucas’s dishonesty in trying to make us believe that Vader had forgotten he once was a 'good man' and that it was therefore ‘okay’ for Vader to be redeemed. I never believed it then, and I do not believe it now, that one good act by Vader (an act I believe was motivated by the same selfish reasons that made him turn to the dark side to protect Padme) earned him redemption and a place in Jedi heaven.
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Posted 21 July 2005 - 07:34 PM

Hear hear. Well argued, Julie. A greater case of course can be made for Lucas's laziness. The stories are incoherent and philosophically/psychologically muffled because Lucas made them up as he went along. The video game analogy often raised is apt: Lucas's "character development" exercises are like the cut scenes between all the action in video games. And seeing as how dumb and incoherent they are, I'd say they are like the cut scenes in Ninja Gaiden or Zero Wing.
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#54 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 11:42 AM

julie, you do make many valid arguments. but you dont see that the whole point of a redemption story is the belief that NO ONE is beyond saving. i mean, does the force sit there with a slide ruler and say, 'hmmm, well, choking and torturing is forgivable, buuuuuut now that he has killed younglings, he's totally screwed.' when did vader become ineligable for redemption?
it may be impossible to resolve this matter without delving into the mire of morality, but let me ask you this:

do you believe that one may fall from light, but not rise from darkness? or that good deeds must be counted and balanced against bad deeds; if vader had gone on living after ROTJ, could he have earned his place in force-heaven, and how?

is it the jedi's duty to ruthlessly stamp out the roots of evil everywhere, or to tirelessly toil for the salvation of their loved ones-everyone?

and may i add, as a matter of pride, that i was born and raised, and still remain, in a small town.
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#55 User is offline   Lord Melkor Icon

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Posted 27 July 2005 - 03:29 PM

QUOTE (Darth Sane @ Jun 2 2005, 12:57 AM)
People's problems with ROTJ are not based solely on its bad quality. they don't like it because ROTJ misses out on so many great opportunities. It is clearly a rehash and the settings reflect that and help create the mindset i.e. another death star...ugh Back to tatooine...arrrh Back to degobah...gosh...Same star destroyers, same rebel fleet...I understand george lucas wanted to reflect a turnaround in the story and make it seem more conclusive but give me a break. Not only on the superficial level, but on character and emotional levels ROTJ is in essence a rehash. It also is anticlimactical.


What is anticlimatical? The final showdown is the best Star Wars scene. "And now young Skywalker, you will die!"
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#56 User is offline   Zatoichi Icon

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Posted 15 September 2005 - 11:55 PM

Once again reserrecting an old thread after reading it in the search for answers.

Many complain about Luke and Leia being brother/sister. Well, what if they were instead in a romantic relationship. This robs from the ending of the film. My reaction to my father threatening to turn my girlfriend to the darkside is what the Hell is your problem dad! Bear in mind that Luke's father was never there for him, but Luke ideolizes him. By the end of ESB Vader has personally set about wrecking Luke's life and causing him both physical and mental damage in both the films and in the EU. Vader then reveals to Luke that he is his father. What a mental blow that must have been. That said, my reaction reaction to my father threatening to turn my sibling (and I have a younger brother) is:
I'm Going To Fucking Kill You!
It is my belief that is having it differently would lessen the impact considerably. "Blood runs thicker than water"

What about having Vader not be Lukes father. Well, which would have a greater impact on your life? Redeeming your father's betrayer and murderer, or redeeming your father? That aside, I have always felt the undertones of something not being entirely true in Obi-Wan's explanation in A New Hope. To me it doesn't sound like he was telling the whole story. You may notice that there is a long pause before Kenobi gives Luke his answer. He explained about the force and the jedi with reletive ease and right away. Then Luke asks about what happened to his father. Obi-wan just sits there for a little bit, then talks. Yes, I had seen all three (original) films at once, but I saw them in order. I thought that then, and had no previous knowledge of the outcome.

What about not having Vader redeemed. His redemption is much of the whole point of the story. It is my opinion that the two previous films set this up anyway. If it didn't happen he would only be a slightly more rememorable cardboard-cutout villain. There wouldn't be much depth to his character.

I think changing these aspects would have made the film crappy. Actually, almost on the same level as the entire PT.

This post has been edited by Zatoichi: 15 September 2005 - 11:56 PM

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#57 User is offline   Smashman Icon

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 03:56 PM

The space battle and Luke-Vader-Emperor scenes are some of the BEST scenes of the trilogy (PT doesn't count).

Still, the PT makes ROTJ look Mozart.
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#58 User is offline   theredbaron Icon

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 12:19 PM

QUOTE (xenduck @ Jul 20 2005, 05:28 PM)
julie, i am impressed by your insight into vader's duality, however, i find your views on the matter to be deplorably provincial. the story here is about anakin's redemption, not ressurection. so it is essential to realize anakin is very much alive (if not well) inside of vader. the name anakin represents the submerged portion of vader's psyche. it is part of his mythical heratige; like osiris in his custom-coffin, like ishtar in the netherworld, like jonah in the whale, the hero is not dead, but trapped, consumed, or (as luke points out) forgotten. luke sees the good, the conflict in vader, padme sees it, even sidious sees it; and through them, the audience sees it. vader, necessarily does not see it, it is repressed; which is why, in true neurotic fashion, he becomes all-too defensive when luke brings up the issue. yet, in a moment of clarity, the repressed portion breaks forward from the unconscious and returns to its true self.

further, it was not the act of saving luke in and of itself that redeemed vader, it was the revelation of right and wrong. the action taken was symbolic of his change of heart.
and anakin had accomplished countless good deeds before his fall, those most be accounted for also. and assuredly, the restored anakin would have become a force for good in the galaxy, given the chance. if good and evil are points of view, then the only point of view that matters is the one that sees all: the Force. the Force knew what was in anakin's heart and found him worthy, that  concept is expressed to the audience by seeing his force-ghost.


All I can say is: HALLELUJAH! FINALLY, SOMEONE WHO GETS IT!

I don't know many Star Wars fans who could have put it the way you've just put it, but I agree with you entirely. No doubt you have read The Hero With A Thousand Faces as well...

Anyway, Julie, it sounds like you're coming at this from the point of view of an atheist. The premise of many religions is that if even Adolf Hitler genuinely repented from his evil ways, every evil deed in his past would be forgiven. For Vader *not* to be redeemed would have been woeful to all of us. A message of doom to all generations...

I think that if any part of ROTJ was well-executed, it was the father/son conflict of Vader and Luke, and the most moving and powerful part of the movie was Vader's redemption. It had to happen to complete the cycle.
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#59 User is offline   Smashman Icon

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 12:46 PM

That is what makes the trilogy so suspenseful. In ANH and most of ESB, you have no clue who or what Vader is- you think he is just a masked, mechanical, robotic menace. In ESB, when the big shocking revelation is revealed, the audience changes their perspective on Vader. They now see him as a once-man, now-machine. If there were ANY subtle hints thrown around during ANH and most of ESB that Vader was once good, or is Luke's father, then it would spoil the surprise.

When Vader didn't kill Piett at the end of ESB (when they lose the Falcon), this is when Vader's internal conflict begins. He realizes he still has some relative of his still alive. After his mother and wife died, he had NOTHING. He must have assumed his unborn child was killed along with his wife. He had NOTHING. He then turns his back to the life he once had, and completely and willingly embraces the Dark Side, and living the next 20 years as a mechanical being. When he realizes he has a son, and tells his son he is his father, this is where Anakin "pokes his head out" and begins an internal conflict with the THING that Vader is. Anakin and Vader have a conflict through the final 5 minutes of ESB, starting with Piett's failure as said above, and into ALL of ROTJ. When Palpatine tries to kill Anakin/Vader's son, Anakin destroys Vader in the internal conflict or rather JUST ENOUGH to kill Palpatine and save his son. This destroys Vader and signals the "Return of the Jedi."

It's sort of like the movie Me, Myself, and Irene with Jim Carrey. Watch it to know what I mean. Charlie eventually wins out over Hank, for love of someone.
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Posted 07 October 2005 - 05:28 PM

wow. awsome. expressing what i am thinking but dont have enough time to put into words.
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