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What is everyone's beef with Return of the Jedi?

#31 User is offline   Primetime Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 10:02 AM

Where does one begin with how awful ROTJ is? The recycled plot lines and settings (another Death Star, another trip to Tattoine); the foolishness of Jabba and his "palace"; the absurdity of Luke's scheme to rescue Solo; the further absurdity of Boba Fett's demise; the ghost of Ben sitting on a rock for a chat; the clownishness of the evil Emporer; Solo's new demeanor; the Ewoks; the Emporer's "best troops"; Vader deciding it's "time to die" after getting zapped by a few bolts . . .

The actors are bored. The directing is uninspired. But who can blame them, given that script?
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#32 User is offline   Lord Aquaman Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 10:50 AM

QUOTE (BinarySunset @ May 10 2005, 12:37 PM)
I lurve you, Lord Aquaman!  ITTTA - I was just mentioning this to someone over the weekend!

The only thing:  don't hate poor Hayden for Lucas' diabolical actions.  It's not his fault  blushing.gif

PS - I also lurve that you use the "real" Aquaman as your avitar!  I loved those old cartoons of Aquaman and Aqualad.  wub.gif


That's probably the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me. Thank you for preferring classic vintage Aquaman to Viking Aquaman (I didn't mind Aquaman with a beard, simply because I'm pro-beards, but the hook and that weird metal chest thing was a little too much).

Oh and Vwing, nice to see you're still around, I was wondering what became of you.

This post has been edited by Lord Aquaman: 11 May 2005 - 10:50 AM

I am the Fisher King.

I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an obi-wan to go.
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#33 User is offline   ernesttomlinson Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 11:44 AM

To continue your sidebar, BinarySunset, I watched TPM twice in the theatre. The first time was in a small multiplex in Boston where I was visiting an old college friend (and huge Star Wars fan.) The second time I was visiting Seattle doing job interviews and watched it at the Cinerama. I'm trying to remember the audience reactions both times - it was positive but not, as I recall, terribly enthusiastic.

I did get a warning from my friend in Boston, who liked the film when he first saw it but with reservations. I remember asking him about it and he said something like, "There wasn't any really memorable dialogue." And there wasn't.
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#34 User is offline   BinarySunset Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 11:54 AM

ernesttomlinson, I wish I had gotten a warning from your friend (or anyone else) about TPM.

IIRC, the Cinerama was the refurbished movie theatre in downtown Seattle, right? If so, that's where I saw TPM as well. Are you located in Seattle now? Just curious is all...
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#35 User is offline   Lord Melkor Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 02:20 PM

ROTJ will be a much better film once you see ROTS!

Emperor`s evil is trully monumental!
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#36 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 03:41 PM

QUOTE (Helena @ May 11 2005, 04:21 AM)
So did I - I knew all these things long before I ever watched any of the films, and I still find them problematic. Plus, I never got to see anything but the first 'Special Edition' of RotJ, so I got treated to that godawful musical number in Jabba's palace as well.


First of all, I said that obviously not everyone would be included. Whenever you make such broad generalizations, there are a bunch of exceptions. I'm just going by what I've experienced.

Second of all, I don't think you fit into my category exactly. Yes, you knew about these things before you saw the films, but you didn't grow up with them (assumption here, assuming you're older than me and watched them for the first time after you were, say, 6, probably even after you were 9). They weren't ingrained in your head as they were for me and others like me who did grow up with them. Therefore, despite knowing all these things about JEDI, you still went in with expectations about how it would be done, dialogue between characters, how the ewok fight would be, how the relationships would be handled, etc.

As an example from ESB, it's one thing to know Vader is Luke's father. It's another to actually see it. Just because you knew Luke and Leia were siblings doesn't mean that you knew how it would come across when you watched it.

I on the other hand never had a choice. I not only knew that they were siblings, I knew the atmosphere when they found it, I knew the dialogue, the facial exp​ressions, every single detail. Again, I had no expectations. I can't remember a time when I didn't know (and by know, I mean had seen in the movie itself) all these things about JEDI. And I think that makes part of the difference.

But again, if I'm wrong about your childhood experiences with JEDI, then that argument's down the tubes.

And Aquaman, I've been here, posting now and then. I'll always be around.
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#37 User is offline   StarWarsIsUs Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 07:07 PM

""Mark was right. I love the idea of Vader and Anakin being two different people.""

I dare you, then, to write a synopsis of your version of ESB & ROTJ, and perhaps also do the same with your version of the prequels. It wouldn't take you very long.
SecretShadow (SuperShadow's main adversary)

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#38 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 08:43 PM

Who are you daring, SWIU?

If its me than I'm WAY ahead of you.
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#39 User is offline   StarWarsIsUs Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 10:04 PM

I was daring Primetime. Silly. wink.gif
SecretShadow (SuperShadow's main adversary)

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#40 User is offline   i don't like sand Icon

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 01:36 PM

I really liked ROTJ. There are flaws, sure (ghost Obi Wan sitting on the log, Chewie's Tarzan yell, Boba Fett's death), but most of them are minor nitpicks that don't really detract from my overall enjoyment of the film (Jabba's palace, the golden bikini, Luke as a mature and compassionate Jedi, speeder bike chase, Luke and Leia bonding, the space battle, Emperor/Vader/Luke scenes, unkmasking and funeral of Vader).

Two things I must defend about the film:
- Emperor Palpatine was a neat villain. He came very close to the line of being over-the-top without crossing it. Unfortunately, ROTS crossed far beyond that line.
- The ewoks. I did not mind their presence. I've heard the argument that their fight against the empire made the stormtroopers look silly, but come on, when have we ever taken the stormtroopers as a remotely serious threat? In ANH and ESB, they were terrible shots, and out of the hundreds of them that attacked Luke, Leia, and Han from a short distance, not a single one of them were able to make a kill or even an injury. They were extremely vulnerable, and a blaster shot to the foot was enough to cause instant death. The stormtroopers have always been a joke, and I thought it was pretty damn funny to see them get beaten up by teddy bears.
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#41 User is offline   Veer Icon

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 02:02 PM

QUOTE (i don't like sand @ Jun 1 2005, 11:36 AM)
- The ewoks. I did not mind their presence. I've heard the argument that their fight against the empire made the stormtroopers look silly, but come on, when have we ever taken the stormtroopers as a remotely serious threat? In ANH and ESB, they were terrible shots, and out of the hundreds of them that attacked Luke, Leia, and Han from a short distance, not a single one of them were able to make a kill or even an injury. They were extremely vulnerable, and a blaster shot to the foot was enough to cause instant death. The stormtroopers have always been a joke, and I thought it was pretty damn funny to see them get beaten up by teddy bears.


LOL I agree! The only bad thing about the ewoks was whenever the Vader/Emperor/Luke scene or the space battle got to a 'build up' moment we would be whisked away to cute and cuddly ewoks doing cute and cuddly things. Some proper editing would/could have fixed that.
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#42 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 04:34 PM

I would've been happier with the Ewoks if 1) they were a little more feral 2) used their size to their advantage, i.e., wiggle through a vent to get into the bunker ('backdoor') and open it 3) more of them were dying in battle, the stormtroopers were displaying what they were actually good for, and pushing the little buggers back. What they would need is a "deus ex machina" to save them (not the commandeered AT-ST either).

Someday, I'll have to mention my ROTJ rewrite.
Flying Ferret

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All I know is I haven't seen the real prequels yet.
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#43 User is offline   Devout Catalyst Icon

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 05:38 PM

I saw ROTJ in the theater and loved it at the time because it was a new Star Wars movie, and that was good enough for me.

But it wasn't quite as important to me as SW and ESB. I was just old enough to be developing an interest in other things besides Star Wars. Dungeons & Dragons, for instance. But I digress.

Now, as an adult, I can say that ROTJ has a few of my favorite moments of the entire OT. For example, I love the moment just after Luke chops off Vader's hand, then looks at his own robotic hand and tosses away his lightsaber. That's about as close to literary foreshadowing as Star Wars gets. Love the whole scene with Luke taking off Vader's mask. Powerful stuff.

But I always thought that Vader got off a little too easy after his decades of oppression and evil. It would be like Hitler getting into heaven just for saying, in his last breath, that Jewish people were OK after all.

Always thought Leia being Luke's sister was a bit much, and inconsistent with the first two. I guess I was really surprised by this turn of events at the time, though, just as I was to get confirmation that Vader really was their father.

I can't say I ever hated the Ewoks, because when I first saw ROTJ, I was still young enough not to mind them. Nowadays, it's pretty easy to see they were part of Lucas's slippery slope into TPM. I didn't even mind the Ewoks made-for-TV movies at the time, but I haven't seen them since and am pretty sure I wouldn't like them now. The Ewoks Saturday-morning cartoon flat-out sucked, though.

I didn't mind any of the Jabba's palace scenes at the time. But these days I hate Salacious Crumb (now described in the EU as a "Kowakian monkey-lizard"...DUMB!). Dumb character, dumb name, annoying as shit. I still love the camera/mic thing that greets Threepio and Artoo at the palace gate, though.

Thought Boba Fett fell into the Sarlaac Pit way too easily. Who didn't?

Always hated the fact that they were constructing a second Death Star. That suggested a dearth of new ideas. Why was this considered the ultimate weapon, when the first one was destroyed so easily? I couldn't really bring myself to care about the Rebels blowing up the second one. Seems even more completely incidental to me nowadays.

I don't know, in some ways ROTJ is the strongest for me, in lots of ways the weakest.

This post has been edited by Devout Catalyst: 01 June 2005 - 05:42 PM

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#44 User is offline   SPQR Icon

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 05:48 PM

QUOTE (i don't like sand @ Jun 1 2005, 07:36 PM)
I really liked ROTJ. There are flaws, sure (ghost Obi Wan sitting on the log, Chewie's Tarzan yell, Boba Fett's death), but most of them are minor nitpicks that don't really detract from my overall enjoyment of the film (Jabba's palace, the golden bikini, Luke as a mature and compassionate Jedi, speeder bike chase, Luke and Leia bonding, the space battle, Emperor/Vader/Luke scenes, unkmasking and funeral of Vader).

Two things I must defend about the film:
- Emperor Palpatine was a neat villain. He came very close to the line of being over-the-top without crossing it. Unfortunately, ROTS crossed far beyond that line.
- The ewoks. I did not mind their presence. I've heard the argument that their fight against the empire made the stormtroopers look silly, but come on, when have we ever taken the stormtroopers as a remotely serious threat? In ANH and ESB, they were terrible shots, and out of the hundreds of them that attacked Luke, Leia, and Han from a short distance, not a single one of them were able to make a kill or even an injury. They were extremely vulnerable, and a blaster shot to the foot was enough to cause instant death. The stormtroopers have always been a joke, and I thought it was pretty damn funny to see them get beaten up by teddy bears.


It's so frustrating when trying to interject logic, reason, and accountabilty into a film where the leader, as portrayed so brilliantly, is usually served with a little lemon or a crém de tar-tar.

Disection here is only for the spectacle and the utter shock its contents reveals to innocent eyes.
An nescis quantilla sapientia mundus regatur
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#45 User is offline   Darth Sane Icon

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 06:57 PM

QUOTE (Magee @ May 10 2005, 07:59 AM)
Alot of you, including Chef, say that ROTJ is hands down the weakest episode of the OT. I fuckin LOVE Return of the Jedi. Until I hit puberty it was my favorite. Im not gonna go into defending it until I hear why everybody doesnt like it as much as the others.


People's problems with ROTJ are not based solely on its bad quality. they don't like it because ROTJ misses out on so many great opportunities. It is clearly a rehash and the settings reflect that and help create the mindset i.e. another death star...ugh Back to tatooine...arrrh Back to degobah...gosh...Same star destroyers, same rebel fleet...I understand george lucas wanted to reflect a turnaround in the story and make it seem more conclusive but give me a break. Not only on the superficial level, but on character and emotional levels ROTJ is in essence a rehash. It also is anticlimactical.
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