[maclamb]

so, struggling to get through a rewatch of II in prep for III, I got to thinking about Luke's line in VI(?)
"I'm a Jedi, like my father before me".
Now, maybe it's just me , but.
in I and II Annekin is not a jedi - being trained, ok, lots of jedi mito-whacthamacallit stuuf in his blood, ok, great with a light sabre, ok, but not good enough to beat Saruman, oops, Mr Magoo or whatever Chris Lee's character name is
But,
He is certainly a LOUSY jedi - can't follow orders control his feeling,s etc....

anyway.
have fun

[StarWarsIsUs]

"I'm a Jedi, like my father before me".

This is a good line in the movie. But techniquelly speaking, Luke isn't a Jedi yet. Did Luke think being a Jedi was hereditary? Yoda even told him that he had to kill Vader first. Can assume Luke was fairly ignorant at that point in time. Nice, huh?

This post has been edited by StarWarsIsUs: 14 May 2005 - 10:21 PM

[ernesttomlinson]

Is there a single important detail about Anakin that we learn from the original movies that is borne out in the prequels. (Well, aside from, "He turns into Darth Vader.") He's not "already a great pilot". He's not known to Owen Lars enough for Owen to give a damn about whether he "shouldn't have gotten involved." He's certainly not "a good man". (S**t, he's not even a man, just an overgrown mama's boy.) And, as you say, there's nothing to indicate that he's much of a Jedi, any more than, say, Obi-Wan is. He gets his ass handed him a couple of times.

[StarWarsIsUs]

Great points, ernest.

[Casual Fan]

Remember that in the original movie, Star Wars: A New Hope there was no suggestion of Darth Vader being Luke's father, and in the first two prequels Anakin hasn't turned into Vader yet.

So the Anakin we are presented with in the prequels pretty much directly contradicts everything we are told in ANH. And the prequels on the whole fit badly with ESB and ROTJ, agreeing only in that Anakin = Vader = Luke's father. And most of ESB occurs before we are told with. In ROTJ we get even more plot exposition that directly contradicts the prequels, plus the movie only makes sense if Vader can be/ is worth "redeeming" which doesn't seem to be true of the Anakin of the prequels.

That is what gets bashers so upset, Lucas has chosen to deconstruct his own movies. Add to that the fact that at least one of the prequels (AOTC) is just bad from a purely movie-making perspective in a way that none of the OT movies come close to being.

[StarWarsIsUs]

""Remember that in the original movie, Star Wars: A New Hope there was no suggestion of Darth Vader being Luke's father""

That is right. Some people don't like the idea of Vader being Luke's father, and wish that they were two different people.

[azryan]

“-Now, maybe it's just me , but in I and II Annekin is not a jedi - being trained, ok,-“

Has the master moron lucas ever specifically said if ‘padawn’ apprentice can still be called Jedi?

Probably not. He probably doesn’t know. He’s screwed up everything it meant to be a Jedi Knight.

Yes Yoda says he’ll be a Jedi when he killed Vader but obviously killing a Sith lord isn’t what any other Jedi had to do to become a Jedi -seeing as there weren’t any around to snuff.

The Jedi-to-be had to pass ‘trials’ whatever those are. Anakin passed them (I think) between Epi. II and III.
So I guess that does make him a Jedi in lucas’s eyes -though if controlling his emotions and listening to your master is part of the trials there's no way he could have passed.

Just lucas cutting corners. Ignoring blatant crap and moving on totally oblivious.

Hell Luke only got an afternoon’s worth of Jedi training from Obi-Wan and then was sent to Yoda later for what.... maybe two weeks??

A month or two at MOST to continue training.

I think that makes Luke a... what’s a rent-a-cop Jedi level called??

Luke goes back after ditching Yoda before he’s done training anyway.... but when he goes back Yoda says he’s done if when he kills Vader right (like starwarsisus said)?

Dumb -the plot point not starwarsisus.

He didn’t even have time to grow that gay rat tale Padawans have to have. Guess after the Jedi got totally whooped blind by a handful of Sith they decided to uh.... rework their rules a bit.

Luke is made to look like he handles himself as a decent Jedi on Jabba’s barge when he knew Yoda hadn’t signed off on his promotion yet so... yeah he’s liar. heh

Now the other question.... are there only Padawan’s and Masters as ranks? It seems like that’s the case but feels wrong.

Should be Padawan learner, then Jedi Knight (a phrase used in the films), then the dorks of the Round Bean Bag Chairs who get the penthouse room with Yoda should be the only ones called Jedi ‘Masters’.

But just my opinion.

Like in many martial arts you have colored learner belts up to Black that means you are now not really a learner anymore. You’re ‘there’... but then there are higher ranks of Black and it’s the old guys who know everything prefectly that are called Masters -which seems like what Yoda equates to.
Not so much what the sadly named Plo Koon or Kit Fisto equates to.

This post has been edited by azryan: 15 May 2005 - 03:39 PM

[maclamb]

Has the master moron lucas ever specifically said if ‘padawn’ apprentice can still be called Jedi?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It almost seems as if lucas never really laid out a firm set of rules for how his universe works.
Basically saying and doing anything that conveniently pleases him (as this is, after all , what it all comes down to) and gives him an opportunity to show his special effects.

yawn. which underlies most of my gripe w/ SW - the movies themselves have moments of feeling and action and can be entertaining.
but, as a STORY?
oh please.
just my opinion, ymmv

[azryan]

Not just your opinion. Many agree with just what you wrote.

Notice that 1977 Star Wars is a totally self-contained movie. He didn’t know it would go anywhere but he did have ‘some stuff’ for before and after it.

Obviously Leia was not Luke’s sister in part IV. Probably not in V either.

The few ideas which will be at the end of III connecting it to IV (read the book so I’m not guessing here) were probably the only things lucas had in mind back when he first wrote IV in 76' or whatever before anything was filmed.

That was his moment of inspiration. Then the madness took over. This was all before the 80's!!

Probably only had some rough plot for V and just a few bits of ideas for VI to finish the story off -hence the retread Death Star and the Ewok filler.

20+ years later he had the grand new idea that-
I- would be about Anakin as a kid.
II- would be a romance.

From there he has nothing and his actual stories/scripts from these‘nothing concepts’ were awful.

The best ideas from SW were just flat out stolen.

Too bad someone can’t steal SW from him.

Maybe decades from now someone will get the rights from his kids to remake the whole series re-writing the whole thing -esp. I-III and two thirds of VI.

All the people who grew up with the OT SW are adults now and the plot of the death of nearly all Jedi, rise and fall of Anakin, rise of the Emperor’s evil plot... that all inherently lends itself to being much more adult/complex/mature than IV-VI.

Such a waste how childish so much of it was instead.

This post has been edited by azryan: 15 May 2005 - 06:34 PM

[maclamb]

Thank you that was going to be my next question, which you answered - did lucas have all of it before he started writing IV, or was it back-filled. Certianly seems the later - a shame.
There are elements that, as you say, may be remade into a decent story later.
Knights, king arthur myth, elements of Asimov Foundation.
The possiblity of a good story is there.
but, as the reviewer in RS said 2 days ago - GL should not have done all the parts - produce, yes...
I'm kinda glad I'm indifferent to SW - if I actually liked it I would have to kill GL, i mean, really...
And yes, I agree - IV is a a standalone and if you put a gun to my head probably the only one i would own, - kinda like matrix - I think 2 and 3 SUCKED (MY OPINION) compared to I
But, $ doesn't talk, it swears - Bob Dylan
And, quite honestly - if someone offered me something between f*cking expensive and f*cking astronomical to make a sequel, with the possiblity it might be (and, to be fair, might not be) crap, sure I'd probably go for it too.
what else do I have to do? I bet that ranch inside his head gets real lonely....

Hope Coppola gives him alot of sh*t!

BTW - did you see the quote from lucas at Cannes where he said they know they two audiences - those above and those below 25 yrs old? and those above don't like the films (I think he's being a bit too flaterring myself, I would scale those number down some...)

[StarWarsIsUs]

""Notice that 1977 Star Wars is a totally self-contained movie. He didn’t know it would go anywhere but he did have ‘some stuff’ for before and after it.""

I made a post on this forum, titled '1977 Star Wars', which is kind of strange, because we refer to it the same. I suggest you go read my post, you might find it interesting... it's on one the 2nd or 3rd forum page.

[maclamb]

""Notice that 1977 Star Wars is a totally self-contained movie. He didn’t know it would go anywhere but he did have ‘some stuff’ for before and after it.""

I made a post on this forum, titled '1977 Star Wars', which is kind of strange, because we refer to it the same. I suggest you go read my post, you might find it interesting... it's on one the 2nd or 3rd forum page.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

good post -

I did look at some of your old ones- seems you could get off topic now and then

[azryan]

starwarsisus,

Read that thread you mentioned. Was there anything specific in that you wanted to point out? Yep... we both refered to the original as the 1977 Star Wars and that it was self contained.
I'm positive we're not the only two people who know that of course.

Didn't know if you thought I snagged your words or what? Nope, just like minds in that case.

I've always loved that classic SW poster you posted too. The best one.

It really matches the fact that it's really a 'fantasy' and not hardly 'sci-fi' IMO.

BTW... I see your DVD petition... You ever look for the Japanese LD version of the original? It's got the DD 5.1 soundtrack and cleaned up picture but it's the original not that special edi. CG disaster.

You can... uh.... 'find' it online and put it on DVD. Seeing as you can't buy the DVD and you've given lucas more money than he deserves I dont' see a problem in 'finding it' online.

You might want to change your petition to asking for the Hi Def version of the originals.

The Hi Def discs will be out at the end of the year or more probably sometime in 2006.
You're just not going to want the orginals on DVD when this format finally comes out.

And... DANG... I can't believe how many people here change their avatar pics so much!? wow.

maclamb,

I also 100% agree with you about the Matrix 2&3.
Bloated and stupid.

Let's fight fast, flying robots by getting into the loader suits stolen from Aliens, where we're totally exposed and can't hardly move.

Then 'cuz these lame suits can't hold ammo for the machine guns on them, we'll just get kids to wheelbarrow more out to us.

And probably best we fight these robots from the middle of a very long narrow bridge that we're easily knocked off of. Make sure there's nothing to catch our fall either.

'Hey... what if instead we just build the damn machine guns and bolted 'em to turrets on this bridge and hardwired 'em to auto-fire better and more accurately than we ever could at the in-coming robots and rig up a system under the bridge to constantly feed in more ammo?
Then we can all hide in that room where mostly everyone else is safely hiding in?'

'What? I can't hear you, I'm dancing too loud!'

[littlejerryseinfeld]

in ROTS, anakin is a jedi, he just wasn't given the rank of 'master' - that's his main gripe... so, luke is correct in saying his father was a jedi...

i don't believe yoda said luke must kill vader, but must face him to become a jedi - obi wan insisted he must destroy vader to free the galaxy... i could be wrong, it's been a while since i've viewed ROTJ.

but the way obi wan describes anakin is not at all the character we see in the prequels. lucas blew it, of course.

[azryan]

"-in ROTS, anakin is a jedi, he just wasn't given the rank of 'master' - that's his main gripe... so, luke is correct in saying his father was a jedi...-"

IMO that's not cool to post spoilers. You should put 'SPOILER' at the top of your post if you do.

I read the RotS book and I don't think you're quite right on this point anyway but to say more I'd have to talk about a film almost no one here's seen yet.