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Jedi Saber Battles Overdone

#16 User is offline   Magee Icon

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 03:04 PM

There is two different issues here. One is battles the other is duels. I had expected the Jedi to be an army fighting against another army. They would probably be well over matched. I thought Anakin would rush ahead like Achilles, obviously using the dark side to kill sometimes to the dismay of OB1 who fought in continuity with the other Jedi. And the Jedi could have all types of cool battlefield manuevers. As far as battles go, I thought the battle in the arena was alright. It was less than I had expected but, better than alot of what Lucas has given us.

There have been two dueling sessions. I thought the one in Episode one with Maul was excellent actually. However, like everything else in these movies, it was totally devoid of point and or emotion. I dont know why Maul was there fighting those guys, I dont know why the guys werent in the battle, it doesnt make any sense to me.
The Dooku battle in AOTC made me sick from beginning to end. When the DVD came out Lucas had an ad that said, and Im not kidding:

"Who the man? Yoda-man!!"

I wish that this wasnt true. Yoda has been transformed from the character with the most soul into a vechile of merchandise. (Does Lucas have a gambling addiction that no one knows about?). But Yoda isnt the only bad part. There is no point at all to the battle between Dooku and the two Jedi. And afterward, they lie like the used props that they are on the ground as Yoda enters from seeminly nowhere, with none of the troops we had last seen him with.

And Storm. You are making the mistake that alot of defenders make. You are saying that because you CAN reconcile these plot lines with the OT, that it makes them good movies. It does not. The fact that Lucas hasnt contradicted himself does not make these movies good. Episodes of a story do not have to simply survive defeating themselves in order to be good.
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#17 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 03:22 PM

QUOTE (ernesttomlinson @ May 9 2005, 10:51 AM)
What is that duty exactly, Storm?  The Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice in the Galaxy, Obi-Wan tells us.  I see nothing in that short job description that necessitates emotional detachment.  I don't expect, for example, that Texas Rangers or RCMPs were ever compelled to promise not to fall in love when being sworn in as guardian of peace and justice in Texas or Canada.

There is no way we can possibly compare the Jedi Order to police services on Earth. The amount of corruption in the police forces is sickening, and a lot of it is probably due to some sort of emotional attachment or prejudice. We can't even maintain peace on Earth for a minute due to the ridiculous hatred between people. If you drop the emotional attachments, then people can do their jobs in a more objective fashion. So again, I think it is reasonable to expect the Jedi to have no emotional attachments, although they clearly do in the movies. And in every instant they are shown with these attachments, the Sith seem to take advantage of it.

QUOTE (ernesttomlinson @ May 9 2005, 10:51 AM)
And let me suggest this:  Yoda's foolishness in the prequels matches that of his creator.  Oh, and Storm - Star Wars already exists.  I can admire the Lucas of 1977 and contemn the Lucas of 2005 and the existence of Star Wars is in no way threatened, hm?  And if, tomorrow, Lucas and his vast corporate apparatus were to vanish from existence, Star Wars would still exist.  The obvious affection in the best of us here (I do not count myself) Star Wars as it used to be, the creativity that has been shown in elucidating its story in ways that don't insult the intelligence as Lucas has done, testifies to the vitality of Star Wars.  My thinking that Lucas ought to retire from moviemaking and settle down to a peaceful life of selling toys - you mistake contempt for hatred - does not affect the existence of Star Wars one whit.

My point was that if George Lucas was taken out of existence, then so would Star Wars. If you look hard enough at any person on Earth, you'll find something you don't like about them or some action of theirs that in some way insults your intelligence. The best way to overcome this is to focus only on the positives. I will admit that Episodes I and II (especially Attack of the Clones) are not good movies, but this gives me no reason to have so much contempt for the man who made a small part of my childhood so enjoyable.

As I read more and more on these forums, it is apparent that people are only interested in pointing out flaws in George Lucas' story telling now and could care less about the Original Trilogy movies. It's like thanking God for giving you existence, something we didn't deserve whatsoever, and then getting all pissy at God 20 years later because we have to work for a living. The point is that you should focus on the initial gift.
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#18 User is offline   Magee Icon

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 03:29 PM

No Storm. That is not the point. That is not the point at all.
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#19 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 03:43 PM

QUOTE (Magee @ May 9 2005, 03:04 PM)
There have been two dueling sessions. I thought the one in Episode one with Maul was excellent actually. However, like everything else in these movies, it was totally devoid of point and or emotion. I dont know why Maul was there fighting those guys, I dont know why the guys werent in the battle, it doesnt make any sense to me.

I think Maul was there to fight so that the invasion of Naboo would last as long as possible. If Maul wasn't present, the Jedi would have simply walked up to the throne room and captured Nute Gunray. The longer the invasion of Naboo lasts, the more likely it is for Palpatine to be voted in as Chancellor.

Also, Obi Wan and Qui Gon have no personal relationship with Maul whatsoever. So what reason would there be for them to converse during a battle?

QUOTE (Magee @ May 9 2005, 03:04 PM)
I wish that this wasnt true. Yoda has been transformed from the character with the most soul into a vechile of merchandise. (Does Lucas have a gambling addiction that no one knows about?). But Yoda isnt the only bad part. There is no point at all to the battle between Dooku and the two Jedi. And afterward, they lie like the used props that they are on the ground as Yoda enters from seeminly nowhere, with none of the troops we had last seen him with.

The point of the battle between Dooku and the two Jedi is to show how ridiculously unprepared the Jedi are to face the upcoming Sith threat. All three of them are arrogant before facing Dooku. Anakin thinks he can take Dooku 1 on 1 and gets zapped with lightning and later gets his arm cut off. Even Obi Wan has somewhat of a cocky, smug look on his face as he absorbs Dooku's lightning with his light saber. The result, Obi-Wan gets taken down with ease. And lastly, Yoda, with his ridiculous kung fu poses and flips which accomplish absolutely nothing, fails to prevent Dooku from escaping. Dooku demonstrates that the best way to duel is to simply stand in relatively the same spot and wait for the others to make stupid first moves like charges or circus flips.

And I assume that the clone troopers did not accompany Yoda because Yoda at least had the sense to realize that they would have been annihilated if they tried to go against one of the most powerful Jedi ever in Count Dooku.

QUOTE (Magee @ May 9 2005, 03:04 PM)
And Storm. You are making the mistake that alot of defenders make. You are saying that because you CAN reconcile these plot lines with the OT, that it makes them good movies. It does not. The fact that Lucas hasnt contradicted himself does not make these movies good. Episodes of a story do not have to simply survive defeating themselves in order to be good.

I'm just going to point out again that Episodes I and II ARE bad movies. I don't deny that. I'm simply defending them from a barrage of overwhelming and unjustified criticism.

QUOTE (Magee @ May 9 2005, 03:04 PM)
No Storm. That is not the point. That is not the point at all.

That's your opinion. I can't force you to see things from my perspective.

This post has been edited by Storm: 09 May 2005 - 03:49 PM

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#20 User is offline   Sagacity Icon

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 03:56 PM

Also, Obi Wan and Qui Gon have no personal relationship with Maul whatsoever. So what reason would there be for them to converse during a battle?

That's right. Absolutely no relationship. "Me Sith. You Jedi. We fight." That's all it is. No build-up, no emotion investment wrapped up in it. The fight is there just for the sake of having a fight.


The point of the battle between Dooku and the two Jedi is to show how ridiculously unprepared the Jedi are to face the upcoming Sith threat.

Sith? Forget the Sith. The Jedi can't even handle a bunch of stick droids! blink.gif
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#21 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 04:50 PM

As I read more and more on these forums, it is apparent that people are only interested in pointing out flaws in George Lucas' story telling now and could care less about the Original Trilogy movies

Bullshit! We're here because we DO care about the OT and how it is treated, it is the PT Gushers who don't give a shit about the OT!!!
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#22 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 05:13 PM

QUOTE (CowboyCurtis @ May 9 2005, 04:50 PM)
Bullshit!  We're here because we DO care about the OT and how it is treated, it is the PT Gushers who don't give a shit about the OT!!!

Bah. I didn't concisely state that. What I meant is that people are more concerned with tearing the PT apart rather than just focusing on how good the OT was.

In any event, defending some parts of the PT is a full time job, and not something I signed up to these forums to do. Eventually I will start contradicting myself. So, for a little while, as Mace Windu says in his "best line" of the AOTC, "This party's over!".

This post has been edited by Storm: 09 May 2005 - 05:21 PM

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#23 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 07:49 PM

Sorry....Didn't mean to get hepped up there...
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#24 User is offline   JW Wells Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 09:06 AM

QUOTE
There is no way we can possibly compare the Jedi Order to police services on Earth. The amount of corruption in the police forces is sickening, and a lot of it is probably due to some sort of emotional attachment or prejudice. We can't even maintain peace on Earth for a minute due to the ridiculous hatred between people. If you drop the emotional attachments, then people can do their jobs in a more objective fashion.


Really? Corruption that's sickening? I'm familiar with only the local police services around where I live, but they seem quite effective. Certainly they haven't produced villians on the order of Darth Vader from within their own ranks.

Elementary psychology will tell you that it's dangerous to completely repress strong emotions since this can cause huge amounts of stress and boil over in unpleasant ways. It looks to me like the Jedi "emotional repression policy" helps contribute to Annakin losing his marbles and signing on with the Sith.
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#25 User is offline   JW Wells Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 09:15 AM

Oh, and I really liked the lightsaber battle concluding TPM - high point of the film for me, really. Ray Park = stage-fighting goodness. Didn't like the AOTC one so much, since the choreography wasn't as inspiring, plus there was the cringe-inducing sight of Yoda channeling his inner Tasmanian Devil.

The swordfight between Obi-Wan and Darth in Star Wars is, well, really lame. They cleaned things up for ESB, but given Luke's acrobatics, I always expected swordfights between Jedi in their prime to be very, very energetic. Since ROTS is supposed to contain eleven hojillion swordfights, I hold out hope it will have a few enjoyable ones.
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#26 User is offline   StarWarsIsUs Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 09:24 AM

QUOTE
The swordfight between Obi-Wan and Darth in Star Wars is, well, really lame. They cleaned things up for ESB, but given Luke's acrobatics, I always expected swordfights between Jedi in their prime to be very, very energetic.


The one in ANH was classic, though. It was lame, sorta, but they were old men, I guess. I still liked the dialogue that was exchanged between Obi-wan and Vader, though. That is what made the duel more epic, making up for the lack of blade speed.
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#27 User is offline   JW Wells Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 02:31 PM

QUOTE (StarWarsIsUs @ May 10 2005, 09:24 AM)
I still liked the dialogue that was exchanged between Obi-wan and Vader, though. That is what made the duel more epic, making up for the lack of blade speed.


Lines like "Only a master of Evil, Darth" and Obi-Wan's baffling assertion that "if you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can imagine"? I'll have to disagree with you here.
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#28 User is offline   HeckHouse Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 06:51 PM

I prefer the dialog in the ESB duel, but the ANH dialog is good as well. While the actual fight is a bit weak, the rest of the movie more than makes up for it.

Things flip in the PT. In TPM, the whole movie sucked, except for the final duel. And in AOTC, it didn't even have a great fight at the end to bring the movie up to watchable levels. But that's just my opinion.
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#29 User is offline   Just another wretched fan Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 09:05 PM

QUOTE (JW Wells @ May 10 2005, 02:31 PM)
Lines like "Only a master of Evil, Darth" and Obi-Wan's baffling assertion that "if you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can imagine"?  I'll have to disagree with you here.


i never saw what was so bad about "only a master of evil, darth"

i liked it

"if you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can imagine"?

it wasn't baffling, it was intriguing. One of the major reasons why fans were crying out for a PT was to explain lines like that. When Qui-Gon didn't disappear, i figured that they would explain how Ben Kenobi did his thing. When you disappear, do you get to become a force ghost and talk to people like Luke? Will this be explained in ROTS?

If Qui-Gon becomes a ghost, it will fuck everything up even worse than it is.
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