Jedi Saber Battles Overdone
#1
Posted 08 May 2005 - 01:34 AM
This would justify the Vader/Obi-Wan duel in Ep IV and legitimize Yoda as a Master to be reckoned with. The less experienced Jedi would be doing the fancy flips and jumping around while the Masters look on and laugh.
"Judge me, by my size do you"? Apparently so. Once you can't jump around so quickly anymore, you're a flaming marshmellow at the end of Dooku's stick. So stupid. So utterly, utterly stupid.
#2
Posted 08 May 2005 - 03:56 AM
The battles in the PT are just a bunch of special effects extravaganza. They are utterly devoid of meaning (mostly, anyway) and have no emotion in them at all.
Can the battle between Darth Vader and Luke in ESB be called meaningless? It contained an enourmous amount of emotion, meaning, and, above all, it was remarkably relevant to the story. Luke learns his folly of trying to take on Vader, who intern reveals he is his father, and as such, creates a massive conflict and struggle within Luke that cannot be described in a few short sentences.
The battle bettwen Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon and Darth Maul had no meaning... it wasn't even in the correct place. Darth Maul reveals himself in front of the doorway and, instead of ordering the soldiers to open fire on him (would would surely have taken care of the twerp), they decide to take him on hand-to-hand. It ends in a most suspense-free manner and the only thing that we get out of it is Qui-Gon making Obi-Wan promise to train Anakin. This totally destroys the original idea that Obi-Wan willing trained Anakin without anyone making him promise to do it.
#3
Posted 08 May 2005 - 11:59 AM
The battles in the PT are just a bunch of special effects extravaganza. They are utterly devoid of meaning (mostly, anyway) and have no emotion in them at all.
Can the battle between Darth Vader and Luke in ESB be called meaningless? It contained an enourmous amount of emotion, meaning, and, above all, it was remarkably relevant to the story. Luke learns his folly of trying to take on Vader, who intern reveals he is his father, and as such, creates a massive conflict and struggle within Luke that cannot be described in a few short sentences.
The battle bettwen Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon and Darth Maul had no meaning... it wasn't even in the correct place. Darth Maul reveals himself in front of the doorway and, instead of ordering the soldiers to open fire on him (would would surely have taken care of the twerp), they decide to take him on hand-to-hand. It ends in a most suspense-free manner and the only thing that we get out of it is Qui-Gon making Obi-Wan promise to train Anakin. This totally destroys the original idea that Obi-Wan willing trained Anakin without anyone making him promise to do it.
Well said, Paladin.
I wondered why the Masters - Chris Lee and Yoda - went from using the Force to fighting with sabers instead of going from fighting with sabers to using the Force.
I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an obi-wan to go.
#4
Posted 08 May 2005 - 12:53 PM
I always thought that having a lot of force ability means being a better fighter. But I guess I'm wrong, and it seems to be that swordsmanship and the force are two different things.
#5
Posted 08 May 2005 - 10:59 PM
YODA: "That we must see."
From here a series of throwing stuff around and Force-lightning starts.
This post has been edited by Lord Aquaman: 08 May 2005 - 11:00 PM
I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an obi-wan to go.
#6
Posted 09 May 2005 - 12:53 AM
However, as it turned out, no such luck.
#7
Posted 09 May 2005 - 01:05 AM
However, as it turned out, no such luck.
DISCALIMER--
I dislike the name and character of QuiGon Jin so much I refure to say, type or refere to him as anything but Liam Neeson.
#8
Posted 09 May 2005 - 01:57 AM
I wondered why the Masters - Chris Lee and Yoda - went from using the Force to fighting with sabers instead of going from fighting with sabers to using the Force.
Essentially the battle did end with going from sabers to using the Force. Dooku used the Force in the midst of a saber lock to attempt to crush Anakin and Obi-Wan, which temporarily distracted Yoda and allowed him to escape.
Although Dooku does say "It is obvious this contest cannot be settled by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a light saber", I believe he only said it so he could have Yoda focus on a light saber duel rather than using the Force (which Yoda was clearly better at), and that distraction would ultimately allow Dooku to escape. But if you ask me, I think Dooku could have defeated Yoda in a light saber duel anyways.
I think the fight was staged to show a major weakness of the Jedi, which again ultimately leads to their doom. Jedi are not supposed to have any emotional attachment. Although Yoda specifically states that they cannot allow Dooku to escape with the plans at all costs, his emotional attachment for Obi-Wan and Anakin is what allows Dooku to escape. I also believe his emotional attachment is what made it so difficult for Yoda to stop the pillar from falling, or from doing the simpler thing of just pushing the two out of the way. I don't think Yoda is supposed to be a wise Jedi Master in the Prequels. His 30 years in exhile on Degobah contemplating his horrible mistakes is what eventually made him so wise.
#9
Posted 09 May 2005 - 02:21 AM
Star Wars is not supposed to have to resort to such a tiresome cliche of fantasy fiction.
And Yoda didn't let Dooku escape because of emotional attachment; he let Dooku escape because he didn't think to waste ten f**king seconds using the Force to disable or destroy Dooku's ship so that Dooku wouldn't have an escape route.
That anyone can attach any significance whatever to a scene that exists solely as an ILM advertisement boggles my mind.
#10
Posted 09 May 2005 - 02:28 AM
That is what we are left with... that Yoda changed somehow in the last 5% of his life.
But the Jedi in the PT still hold Yoda as THE standard - in TPM, Anakins Midichlorian count is compared to Yodas, and in AOTC Anakins lightsaber skills are again compared to Yoda. So we must come to the conclusion that the Jedi are all numbskulls, and killing them off was not such a bad thing, and the Return of the Jedi may not really be a good idea afterall.
#11
Posted 09 May 2005 - 02:41 AM
Star Wars is not supposed to have to resort to such a tiresome cliche of fantasy fiction.
Why not? The Jedi following a code involving no emotional attachment is perfectly legitimate for what their duty to the Republic is.
Although this would seem to be the logical thing to do, there are several examples in the first two prequel movies of the Jedi doing illogical things. Yoda was probably cocky enough to think he could stop Dooku, especially since Dooku was once his apprentice, by either using his force powers or his light saber. As I mentioned in a few of my other posts, I don't see Yoda as a wise Jedi in the Prequels.
Well, once you can get past hating Lucas for the prequels and accept the fact that without him there is no Star Wars at all, then it's quite easy.
#12
Posted 09 May 2005 - 02:52 AM
But the Jedi in the PT still hold Yoda as THE standard - in TPM, Anakins Midichlorian count is compared to Yodas, and in AOTC Anakins lightsaber skills are again compared to Yoda. So we must come to the conclusion that the Jedi are all numbskulls, and killing them off was not such a bad thing, and the Return of the Jedi may not really be a good idea afterall.
1. It's not unreasonable for a person to have a significant change in the last 5% of their lives. Especially after experiencing the attrocities which will surely happen in ROTS.
2. In the Prequels, Yoda is "the best of the Jedi", but he clearly is easily manipulated by the Sith. The problem with the Jedi is that they are too arrogant of their abilities. If Yoda is more concerned with saving Anakin and Obi-Wan from being crushed than preventing Dooku's escape, no wonder Yoda or any other Jedi cannot detect the Sith's presence.
3. The Jedi in the prequels are numbskulls, except for Qui Gon.
4. Killing the Jedi off in ROTS would be fitting.
5. Although the Jedi are fools, the Return of the Jedi (Luke) is good for one thing if anything: Eliminating the Sith.
Aside (In reply to the comment that emotional attachments don't belong in a Star Wars universe): Luke's attachment for Obi-Wan in a New Hope nearly gets the entire crew shot by Stormtroopers as he shouts out when Ben is struck down. And as we saw in The Empire Strikes Back, Luke's emotional attachment for Han and Leia draws him to Bespin where he nearly gets killed. Furthermore, Luke's emotional attachment for Leia in Return of the Jedi nearly leads to him kill his own father and complete his turn to the dark side. Since these attachments never seem to do any good for a Jedi, why would they be allowed? It cleary distracts them from doing the right thing. Why should this be forbidden in the Star Wars universe?
This post has been edited by Storm: 09 May 2005 - 03:14 AM
#13
Posted 09 May 2005 - 10:51 AM
What is that duty exactly, Storm? The Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice in the Galaxy, Obi-Wan tells us. I see nothing in that short job description that necessitates emotional detachment. I don't expect, for example, that Texas Rangers or RCMPs were ever compelled to promise not to fall in love when being sworn in as guardian of peace and justice in Texas or Canada.
If the idea of the Jedi as solitary ronin-like figures be accepted then I could well imagine individual and masterless Jedi deciding, voluntarily, to shed as many personal attachments as possible to make wandering easier. However Lucas specifically denies in the prequels this notion of the Jedi. They're just another drab assortment of functionaries now, not their own masters but beholden to some "Academy" and presumably to the Republic (although Lucas never makes this clear), and I wouldn't expect them to forgo emotional connexions in the service of their jobs any more than I would expect that from the King County Sheriff's Department.
And let me suggest this: Yoda's foolishness in the prequels matches that of his creator. Oh, and Storm - Star Wars already exists. I can admire the Lucas of 1977 and contemn the Lucas of 2005 and the existence of Star Wars is in no way threatened, hm? And if, tomorrow, Lucas and his vast corporate apparatus were to vanish from existence, Star Wars would still exist. The obvious affection in the best of us here (I do not count myself) Star Wars as it used to be, the creativity that has been shown in elucidating its story in ways that don't insult the intelligence as Lucas has done, testifies to the vitality of Star Wars. My thinking that Lucas ought to retire from moviemaking and settle down to a peaceful life of selling toys - you mistake contempt for hatred - does not affect the existence of Star Wars one whit.
#14
Posted 09 May 2005 - 11:59 AM
"you're powers are weak, old man."
"you can't win, darth. if you strike me down i'll become more powerful than you can possible imagine."
now, that's some dialogue, bitches!
#15
Posted 09 May 2005 - 12:46 PM