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The Diminishment of the Force

#1 User is offline   Magee Icon

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 03:04 PM

You guys have all been very critical of the storyline that the Jedi's power to used the Force has been diminished and that that is why they are unable to prevent sense Palpatine. I agree that the half assed way that Lucas has explained it is poor, but I haven't really heard any of you guys acknowledge that this was a problem long before Lucas ever wrote these prequels. Unlike other parts of the PT where Lucas created problems and plot obstacles and inconistencies that need not have existed, this problem was born in the opening scenes of Episode IV.

The problem is this, "Why should we have any sympathy or nostalgia for the Jedi, or look back on them reverently, when they failed at their one main function: the protection of the galaxy?"

Even when I was little I always had a problem with this. I used to ask myself, "What is so great about the Jedi if the Emperor is greater than they are?"
And I came up with the answer: Anakin Skywalker.

I had always assumed that the Emperor could handle all of the political manuevers but at the end of the day the Jedi would stand in between him and absolute power. And this is why he needed Anakin. Not only because Anakin was on the inside, but also because he was the only Jedi with the ability to destroy the Jedi. And I always assumed that the Jedi would allow Anakin to become a Jedi because they needed his great power in the Wars and because they were clouded by their own affection and admiration for him (Not by some mythical cloud that exists just because Lucas says it does, but because of actual human emotion, you know, that the audience can understand and relate to.)

I have begun to realize lately that just because I had this plot outline in my mind since 1987 does not mean that it ever actually existed. But I have gone back and watched the OT with my friend and I really dont see an adequate alternative way of solving this problem.

So my question is this, I am sure that some of you have asked similar questions about the OT (Whats so impressive about the Jedi?), what had your answers been?
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#2 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 03:22 PM

I never saw this as being a necessary plot element. It never occurred to me that they'd have their ability to use the Force diminish? Why would they? Is that they only logical explanation?

There are a million ways the Jedi could have fallen from power without their abilities diminishing. They are, overall, too powerful in the prequels. They should be this group of amazing warriors but it is possible that some of them could miss a blaster shot with their lightsaber occassionally. They should be able to be beaten sometimes.

I always assumed Palpatine could have been a Force-sensitive (maybe former Jedi) politician who used the Force for his own means and success. The Jedi could have been able to detect his Force abilities but a smart and clever senator (or chancellor, or what have you) with strong political/military ties should be able to be a match even for the Jedi.

Having the Jedi have no clue what he's up to at all doesn't make them seem like their Force ability has diminished, it makes them look like a bunch of idiots.
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#3 User is offline   Magee Icon

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 04:05 PM

So you had always imagined that they were simply overpowered by the Emperor?
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#4 User is offline   Sagacity Icon

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 04:07 PM

What's wrong with that?
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#5 User is offline   Magee Icon

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 04:55 PM

There is nothing wrong with that. I wrote the thread only to see if any other fans had recognized that there was a potential problem and to see what their expectations had been for how Lucas would deal with it.
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#6 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 07:29 PM

The PT force is a metaphor for OT fans' (former) adulation of STAR WASR.
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#7 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 01:08 AM

The diminishment of the force is necessary only when the PT is brought into account. It (accidentally, I think) explains why the OT Jedi are not gods.

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#8 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 06:21 AM

I always assumed that the combination of the Sith and the clones was simply too much for the Jedi. As J m points out, they're not gods. The EU stuff like KOTOR shows that the Republic and the Jedi actually came very close to defeat on several occasions, and I'd say that holding out for nearly 25,000 years was a pretty major achievement.
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The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#9 User is offline   StarWarsIsUs Icon

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 07:46 AM

I keep running into mention of KOTOR from Helena. Or maybe it is just my imagination.

Did you know, back on one of the old storylines of Luke Starkiller, that GL had made Leia and Luke demigods? I'm serious. I read it at the last part of the plot synopsis that I downloaded at a site. It was about the two bearocrats traveling with them on a journey to save the princess.
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#10 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 10:55 PM

Actually, I thought it was just Leia who was to revealed to be a demi-god.


Anyway, yes, Anakin should be the pinacle upon which all of this teeters. As shown in the PT so far, he's nothing special. He's no better than any other Jedi.... I really can't understand why the Emperor would want to save him... I mean, especially if the number of midichlorians in your body really "count", and Anakin is missing four limbs (i.e., missing midi-chlorians, ergo less powerful), then why should he saved? What's the point?

Anakin should've been the greatest Jedi as he's alluded to in the OT.
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#11 User is offline   Invisible Hand Icon

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 11:42 PM

It never occurred to me that they'd have their ability to use the Force diminish? Why would they? Is that they only logical explanation?

The Jedi's ablility to use the Force diminished because they lost the spiritual aspect of the Force and became administrators to the Republic. They stopped listening to the Force. The conflict for the Jedi in the PT is whether they should serve the force or serve the Republic; they choose the later. Yoda and Ben corrected this problem after their failure became apparent in ROTS.
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#12 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 11:45 PM

Yeah, a 900-year-old Jedi Master hadn't a clue about being spiritually out of touch with the Force... nope, no clue at all.....
Flying Ferret

Battle for the Galaxy--read the "other Star Wars"

All I know is I haven't seen the real prequels yet.
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#13 User is offline   Invisible Hand Icon

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 12:04 AM

Yeah, a 900-year-old Jedi Master hadn't a clue about being spiritually out of touch with the Force... nope, no clue at all.....

The 900 year-old Yoda became complacent; i mean for all those years the Republic was at its height.
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#14 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 07:10 AM

QUOTE (Invisible Hand @ May 8 2005, 05:42 AM)
The Jedi's ablility to use the Force diminished because they lost the spiritual aspect of the Force and became administrators to the Republic.  They stopped listening to the Force.  The conflict for the Jedi in the PT is whether they should serve the force or serve the Republic; they choose the later.  Yoda and Ben corrected this problem after their failure became apparent in ROTS.

Oh, yeah, of course. And naturally this is all fully explained in the Prequels, not just dreamed up out of nowhere by Lucas's apologists.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#15 User is offline   ernesttomlinson Icon

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 10:05 AM

Yeah, where does all this handwaving come from? The Jedi are like solitary ronin in the original movies and suddenly in the prequels they're like stuffy bureaucrats (who precise relationship to the Republic, by the way, is never clearly explained) and we're supposed to buy it? If we are then Lucas should have given us a reason instead of leaving it to some spin-off novelist or, worse, an overenthusiastic fan to supply one.
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