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Evil will always triumph because good is dumb A mini-essay

#76 User is offline   JW Wells Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 05:38 PM

QUOTE (xenduck @ May 10 2005, 04:20 PM)
heres my version of a real-world comparison that everyone seems to crave.

the earth. it is comprised of many countries, each with its own military. yet the earth itself has no military of its own.


All fine and good, except that "The Earth" is not a political entity. There is no "Earth" representative body, no "Earth Senate", no "Supreme Chancellor of Earth". I do not rely on an "Earth government" to determine taxation rates.

I think the closest real-world analog to the Galactic Republic as presented in the PT is the League of Nations. It was an association of governments that was dedicated to disarmament, peaceful resolution of conflicts, had no military of its own, and relied on member states' militaries to enforce its decisions.

There are a couple of big differences, though: 1) Any state that wanted to could withdraw from the League, and no military action was considered to force them to stay in. 2) The League lasted not quite twenty years before being revealed as a grotesque failure with the onset of the second world war.

My issue with the Republic as presented is not that it never would have existed, but that it certainly would not have existed as it is presented in the PT for millenia.
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#77 User is offline   The Other Icon

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 08:17 PM

heres my version of a real-world comparison that everyone seems to crave.

the earth. it is comprised of many countries, each with its own military. yet the earth itself has no military of its own.


Earth doesn't need a military of its own because there is no outside threat to Earth. As far as we know there is nothing out there that would require a global military.

then how is it that no one, or several, countries have ever taken over the whole earth? becuase the other countries unite their armies against the aggressors

No it has more to do with economic prowess and political allies than how much gunfire you've stockpiled (nuclear power excluded). Also using your military might to start taking over other areas often has nasty consequences. For examples please see WW1 and WW2.

but would such a united army be needed if virtually all countries were already united, with a common purpose? would the armies need to be united if there was a diplomatic corp supplemented by a large number of well-respected, highly-trained, super-powered peacekeepers?

We already have something like that and it's called the UN and everybody still has their own armies anyways.

the army would only be needed if the earth were split in two.

Earth was already split in two during the Cold War and that all revolved around MAD. The Trade Federation in the PT should not be able to assume the same position as the Soviet Union did against the US and vice versa. Which it has because the representative merely started speaking and the whole senate basically ground down to a halt so nothing got accomplished. Also if a global army existed and then Earth split into two sides, which side gets the army?

further, it is my conjecture that an individual planet or a group of planets could not maintain there level of culture and technology without imports from other planets. if said group split from and angered the republic, it would flounder, stagnate, and die. imagine if the US were cut-off from foriegn oil.


It’s a planet, if it has enough stuff to support life then it will continue to support its self without foreign aid. If the US stopped importing oil tomorrow it wouldn't just die because every last drop of oil they use is not all imported.
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#78 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 03:56 PM

"All fine and good, except that "The Earth" is not a political entity. There is no "Earth" representative body, no "Earth Senate", no "Supreme Chancellor of Earth". I do not rely on an "Earth government" to determine taxation rates."

no, earth is not a political entitiy, niether was the galaxy at some point. the galaxy united its memebers in a way not achieved on earth. the idea here is that IF the earth united all countries, yet none were conquered by others, then each country would have its own army that would be at the disposal of all the countries.

"Earth doesn't need a military of its own because there is no outside threat to Earth. As far as we know there is nothing out there that would require a global military."

exactly! just as there is nothing known of outside the republic.

"No it has more to do with economic prowess and political allies than how much gunfire you've stockpiled (nuclear power excluded). Also using your military might to start taking over other areas often has nasty consequences. For examples please see WW1 and WW2."

when i say 'united armies' i mean to include everything that goes into creating and maintaining said army. and those consquences could serve to deter planets from acting agressively against each other, let alone the whole of the republic.

"We already have something like that and it's called the UN and everybody still has their own armies anyways."

thats my point! all the planets of the republic are responsible for there own planetary security, knowing that tens of thousands of other armies will support them if needed.

"Earth was already split in two during the Cold War and that all revolved around MAD. "

yes the earth was split, but it had never been whole.

"It’s a planet, if it has enough stuff to support life then it will continue to support its self without foreign aid. If the US stopped importing oil tomorrow it wouldn't just die because every last drop of oil they use is not all imported. "

'die' was too strong a word, i mean to say that, the thing that makes hyperdrives work may not be found on every planet. nor the thing that makes lightsabers work, or forcefields, or medical tanks, or laser rifles. if not each and every planet can produce these things on their own, then they would need to be part of the collective, and play by its rules. otherwise they would revert to an earlier stage of technology; which can be disasterous.
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#79 User is offline   Lord Melkor Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 04:06 PM

Hey, didn`t Naboo had a small fleet of their own?! It seems that they had an army, just very small!

I am sure bigger systems have greater forces, just like Corporations! Actually, it seems like Trade Federation is based on one race, so it is logical they also represent their home system(Cato Neimodia, by the way.)

Oh, and Republic is something like a cross between USA, European Union and United Nations - it is not a centralized goverment! And we see it in the time of crisis, it prospered once!
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#80 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 01:17 AM

Fleet is too strong a word. It was a fighter squadron. And the only army they had were the Gungans and Amidala's personal guard.

The Republic is a centralised government. Each planet is autonomous to an extent, but all are states within the Republic - the planetary leaders are distinct from the Senators, but planetary leaders can address the Senate and Senators seem to act in consultation with the Senators.

As for the Neimodians, sure I could have believed that, but the line was something like "The chair has not recognised the distinguished representative from the Trade Federation.", not Cato Neimodia.
We are led to believe, from that if nothing else, that the Trade Federation are a corporation with representation on the Senate as distinct from a system that also has a trade franchise.
What was the trade franchise, anyway?

This post has been edited by Mnesymone: 12 May 2005 - 01:18 AM

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#81 User is offline   Casual Fan Icon

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 04:35 AM

Lucas' political plot might have worked if, instead of wringing his hands, the Chancellor had actually sanctioned the Trade Federation invasion. Then Palpatine would have been a hero for getting rid of the Chancellor who was in league with the TF. Of couse that would have raised the additional problem of explaining why the replacement of the Republic by the Empire was such a bad thing.
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#82 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 12:53 PM

i was not lead to believe the TF were only a corporation. they had a seat on the senate, therefore logic tells me they have a planet. we also know that the TF controls more than one planet. also, we only see one species in the TF, so that leads me to believe they originally come from the same planet. i imagine their homeworld conquered or cajoled other worlds into their federation. and im just guessing, but if they controlled dozens or hundereds of planets then that would expalian their high position in the senate.
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#83 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 02:21 PM

The long and short of it is that a republic of individual sovereign states (planets), allied but separate, is what Lucas had in mind all along, and he's never seen it differently. Leia bosts of systems slipping through Tarkin's fingers and joining the rebellion. Lucas failed to show the rise of the Empire as a bad thing, when as Helena has excellently pointed out, the Republic as Lucas ultimately portrays it is so useless its money, common to tho0usands of worlds, is no good even within short flying distance of its borders. That, and how the allied systems can't recognize nor react to interplanetary skirmishes, which frankly would be occurring all the time..
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#84 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 03:52 PM

can we not agree that the republic of TPM is a piece of crap, and will inevitably fall? then can we agree that the republic of TPM was not always a piece of crap?

good and evil are subjective. we are told the empire is evil; it is taken for granted. an empire itself is niether good or evil, it is the people who rule it who are good or bad to the masses. i think an improtant point about the saga is that in the OT there were no gray areas, G vs E, simple, clear. but the PT shows us that G sometimes falls to E, and that E can eventually return to G. (thats true not only of anakin, but the republic/galaxy as a whole.) the PT takes us to a galaxy where you dont always no who your friends are, who your enemies are, or even who you are. the two trilogies are distinctive yet complimentary.
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#85 User is offline   The Other Icon

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 08:50 PM

QUOTE
can we not agree that the republic of TPM is a piece of crap, and will inevitably fall? then can we agree that the republic of TPM was not always a piece of crap?


No because we are not given any indication that it ever was anything other than a piece of crap. Yes Palpatine did say "the Republic is not what it once was" but what exactly was it? To use your example of the Empire, we know the Empire is evil not just because Obi-wan said so, but also because we get to see their evil deeds in action i.e. destroying Alderaan, killing Owen and Beru etc.

We don't get to see how the Republic use to be. None of the characters even tell us about how wonderful and perfect the Republic use to be except in vague generalities. So all we are left to assume is the Republic has always been a festering ball of morons who suck at their job.
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#86 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 09:43 PM

Lucas makes up everything as he goes along. The republic was just a word on a script back in 1977.

In the 90's he turned the non-existent republic in to a reality. So far the only thing different before the republic is that everything looked shiney and new as oppose to dusty and old.

We've also seen more people walk around in robes, addesssing each other as 'senator' and 'chancellor' and 'viceroy'

It's a crock of shit. Everything, it's all hastely written mumbo jumbo. Lucas never intented to make a six part epic. It was always just the first film then a cool second one, which he got help with, and then a crappy third one. And then, 20 years later we get a bunch of other poo on a stick.

Just because some guy in the OT mentions something, like "your daddy was a pilot" or "the republic blah blah" It does not mean that Lucas had the idea back then, it's just script filler. And then two decades later he uses this small potatoes story line and tries to blow up a huge 3 part trilogy.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 12 May 2005 - 09:44 PM

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#87 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 11:33 PM

That's why it would have been much better not to have prequels at all, and just rename the original movies as episodes 1, 2 and 3 respectively.

Yeah, I think you're right that Lucas didn't have any intention to draw these things out originally. And why would he? The original trilogy is complete in itself. We never HAD to see the back story to understand it.
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#88 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 13 May 2005 - 11:20 PM

how can you say lucas didnt have prequals in mind when he laballed the orginal trilogy IV, V and VI?
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#89 User is offline   StarWarsIsUs Icon

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Posted 13 May 2005 - 11:33 PM

He is saying that the prequels didn't matter, and that Lucas had no intention of going back and doing them when he made Star Wars.
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#90 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 14 May 2005 - 01:53 PM

i know that's what he is saying, im asking how can he say that? anyone can say the prequals dont 'matter', star wars doesnt 'matter'. but if lucas had no intent on making the PT then why even CONCIEVE of calling the OT 4-6; let alone acctually doing it?
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