[Just your average movie goer]

Helena, I just wanted to say that this is one of the best threads I've ever come across in this forum. I think your list of reasons are right on the mark - but they also make lively and entertaining reading.

I think they easily deserve a place alongside Chefelf's lists.

Not surprisingly, I completely disagree with all those users who posted criticisms of your reasons while simultaneously, I acknowledge their right to have their different opinions, strange as they may be.

[xenduck]

"the reason you can't tell me how the Republic survived for so long is because there is no conceivable way it could have done so."

again, not listening to me. i know, and i have continually said that i know, that there IS no concievable way it could be so. but it is very very very very very concievable that 21st century society cant concievie of everything that is possible. need i enumerate all the 'facts' of the last seven thousand years that have fallen flat on their faces? the republic is based in the real world, hence the word, republic. however, you will notice that the emperor was not called hitler, or caesar. the political systems are not EXACTLY the same as what they are based on. it is a sad state when you believe the present society is the best possible society. very sad indeed.

[ernesttomlinson]

need i enumerate all the 'facts' of the last seven thousand years that have fallen flat on their faces?

If any of them have to do with the essential qualities of human nature that have, for those thousands of years, led to conflict and strife within every form of human government - then, yes, tell us about these 'facts' of human nature that have fallen flat on their faces.

[civilian_number_two]

Hey, this is a great thread. Sorry to come in so late. Xenduck, I appreciate what you're trying to do, that is play Devil's Advocate, but your argument has exactly one note: This is an alien universe, and beyond our understanding. You ask your opponent to design a perfect society that would work, assuming if she can't that her criticism are not valid, and that therefore Lucas's ideas, which you have not defended, have been justified. This is known as shifting the burden of proof: Helena has found all manner of real weaknesses in Lucas's universe, and your reaction is to say "Lucas's world works, because what is your alternative?".

It is possible for an alien society to be vastly different, so comparisons with our own society are not possible: Ok, fine, but in Lucas's society the government is identical to that of the US, with lobby groups influencing the senate, and with Queens having term limits in democratic elections. Lucas's universe also has slaves and chariot races, colour commentators, taxi cabs, bounty hunters, greasy-spoon diners, sleazy junkyard dealers, gambling, loan sharks, hot rods and tattoos shaped like the brakes of water-going vessels. Not to mention millions of guns and swords lying around everywhere (thank you JW Wells). I think Lucas, and in his absence you, ought to do some work explaining the ways in which this society of his CANNOT be described as an analog of our own.

Comparisons with More, Plato, and even Swift are interesting, but they draw attention to something you're not acknowledging: More, Plato and Swift were not writing about alien societies; they were writing about our own, and using alien societies as comparison, to show what in our own was worth looking at. Lucas's world, from this point of view, is to held in direct comparison with our own, and now STAR WARS is a cautionary tale. Of what, I don't know, but are you really trying to go there? Ultimately, if you want to reference these guys but refuse to ackowledge even the most basic point of their writing, it sounds like you're just trying to bring in another big argumentative fallacy, the appeal to authority, to back up your flagging series of points.

So, uh ... work harder, and with less of the pretentious wankery.

Helena, just about everything you brought up, in my opinion, is on the money. There is some nitpicking there and there, that you might have avoided, but I know it's hard when you get on a roll!

[Mnesymone]

I've only made minor points in this thread because its such a good thread - mini-essay... it's almost a publishable paper.
The points you've made, Helena, are something fairly close the sum total of the original trilogy fans points on this forum - in fact, this thread is probably one of the more comprehensive summations of everything about the PT here at ChefElf. Good work.

[Helena]

again, not listening to me. i know, and i have continually said that i know, that there IS no concievable way it could be so. but it is very very very very very concievable that 21st century society cant concievie of everything that is possible. need i enumerate all the 'facts' of the last seven thousand years that have fallen flat on their faces? the republic is based in the real world, hence the word, republic. however, you will notice that the emperor was not called hitler, or caesar. the political systems are not EXACTLY the same as what they are based on. it is a sad state when you believe the present society is the best possible society. very sad indeed.

No, you're the one who's not listening to me. My point is that all the bleating about what a society potentially could be like is irrelevant, because the society we actually see in the films is OUR society. Sure, there are aliens and droids and the Force and starships that travel faster than light, but as civilian pointed out, in every other way it's pretty much identical to ours. People behave the same way, the culture is similar, the political institutions are similar. Amidala even has a ruddy two-term limit, for Christ's sake!

All of which means that if something wouldn't work in our society, it's not going to work in that one either, full stop. The few differences - e.g. government on a glactic rather than a national or worldwide scale - would only make it more difficult for such a staggeringly incompetent institution as the Republic to survive. You can't simply wave your hand and say 'well, Lucas says it did so it must have done somehow', because there's no way on earth anyone with any involvement in real-world politics is going to buy that.

No, of course you wouldn't expect the Republic's government to be exactly the same as ours - which is why all the crap about two-term limits and the like is so stupid. (Believe it or not, George, many people outside of the US consider that rule pretty undemocratic.) But there are a few basic changes would vastly increase the plausiblity of the Republic as portrayed in the Prequels:

1. Give the Republic an army. I am not kidding about this: GIVE IT AN ARMY. And give all the planets proper defences of their own as well.
2. Give it a functioning government - not perfect, but functioning. In other words, one that isn't completely under the thumb of special-interest groups, doesn't allow a 'trivial trade dispute' to turn into a galactic crisis, and can deal with a real glactic crisis without having to set up a bloody commission.
3. Do not portray NGOs like the Trade Federation as being so ridiculously powerful. Yes, organisations on that scale are certainly going to be very influential, but allowing them their own armies and Senate seats is beyond ludicrous - as is the suggestion that they secretly control half the politicians in the Galactic Senate.
4. Come up with some real enemies that might plausibly pose a threat to the Republic. Sith-backed separatists trying to foment a civil war is a reasonably good idea in principle, but they have to have a genuine reason to want to secede from the Republic ('taxes are too high' is not, in and of itself, enough). There are all sorts of real-life separatist movements - ethnic, religious, political - that could serve as an example, and it's not impossible to imagine such unrest spreading between regions until it becomes a fairly major threat.

I've only made minor points in this thread because its such a good thread - mini-essay... it's almost a publishable paper.

Hmm... maybe I should extend it a bit and submit it as my final-year dissertation. 'The Politics of Star Wars: Why the Galactic Republic Couldn't Survive.'

[CowboyCurtis]

And I love to read that, too!!

1. Give the Republic an army. I am not kidding about this: GIVE IT AN ARMY. And give all the planets proper defences of their own as well.

Yes, even if it's an outdated army, which would make a lot of sense. It'd be an army equipped like a WWI army, and almost ceremonial garb, more style than substance, and then the Military which Palpatine invokes would be all about practicality, getting the job done, updating the weaponry, etc. a replacement for an army that was not that effectual. You can easily see senators and the people getting behind that if the enemy is powerful enough.

4. Come up with some real enemies that might plausibly pose a threat to the Republic. Sith-backed separatists trying to foment a civil war is a reasonably good idea in principle, but they have to have a genuine reason to want to secede from the Republic ('taxes are too high' is not, in and of itself, enough). There are all sorts of real-life separatist movements - ethnic, religious, political - that could serve as an example, and it's not impossible to imagine such unrest spreading between regions until it becomes a fairly major threat.

And I've probably mentioned my Mandalores as the real enemies idea already.... The Sith could still set them up, they could still be a real threat with real motives and real desire to destroy the Republic.

[Invisible Hand]

The story that GL is telling the in the PT is how the Republic became the Empire. It cannot do so unless it has very serious flaws as you, Helana, have pointed out. It is corrupt, businesses and corporations have too much power, and everyone has become complacent. This is a sign of a decaying system of government that Palps is able to exploit. You seem to want it the other way around; the Republic is a well functioning system that gets conqured by an outside force; which is fine, but in my opinion I find it far more interesting to see the Republic give into its fear over security and willingly let a tyrannical leader come to power.

As for the Republic having no army; the Republic resembles a one world government. Each planet has its own security force to keep order on its planet, but the Republic itself doesn't keep its own standing army. This is because just about the entire galaxy is part of the Repbulic save for the few weak outer rim planets (Tattoine for example). There are no major exterior threats. Take the US for example, each state has a police force to control what happens in its borders, but it doesn't need a large standing army to control each state, the standing army is used for external problems caused by other countries.

As far as the Trade Federation in concerned; it came as a suprise to Obi-Wan in TPM that the Federation had an "invasion army." But the problems the Republic faced in the PT has nothing to do with having no army, because afterall, it was the creation of the Grand Army of clones that was the undoing of the Republic. The crisis with the TF in TPM was just a smoke screen used by Palps to get power. The TF posed no threat to the Republic because it was a corporation that made money within the Republic; if the Republic used an army to crush the TF, how would it prevent the real dangerous issue - stopping the system from decaying, allowing people like Palps to gain power?

[Just your average movie goer]

I'm not listening! I'm not listening!

[Mnesymone]

"Take the US for example, each state has a police force to control what happens in its borders, but it doesn't need a large standing army to control each state, the standing army is used for external problems caused by other countries."

But that example still means that a large confederacy (the US, or the Republic) would have a large army for important threats. The Republic does not, at least until the creation of the Army of the Republic... (why army - why not Navy... thats just odd) ...and 'internal threat' of the federation invading Naboo struck me as strange... The Republic was kept from responding to the threat of the Federation by procedures, but if they had no army what response were they going to make.
"You will cease your occupation of Naboo, or else."
"Or else what?"
"Or we will be very angry with you, and we will write you a letter, telling you how angry we are."

And your american state police force thing is also missing from the equation - Naboo had the Queen's guards, and a fighter squadron, but not any real defense force or even law enforcement force.

[Helena]

The Republic does face external threats (think of all the times it came close to being destroyed by the Sith) and it also faces internal ones such as civil war, as we see in the film. STOP TRYING TO TELL ME IT DOESN'T NEED AN ARMY. IT WON'T WORK. As for the Republic needing to have 'flaws', fair enough, but showing it as flawed is one thing; showing it as the complete basket case we see in the film is quite another. I've explained a million times why a government like this wouldn't last weeks, let alone millennia, and I am not going through it again. As far as I'm concerned, this discussion is over.

[civilian_number_two]

I agree Lucas's government would not work, but what is wrong with each system having its own military, a requirement for Federation membership, to be called on when some system or organization broke the rules. A galaxy-controlled military is unimportant in this scenario, just so long as there is a military of some kind. And yeah, there would be skirmishes, which is what the galactic senate is supposed to be there for: if this is an analog to Rome, the senate is the representation of various provinces, and the rise of the Emperor is the rise of central authority. In this scenario, when the TF's huge military swept in to attck the weakly-defended Naboo, dozens of local systems, arranged by the senate, would sweep in to police the event.

Lucas waves his hand about how such a system requires long discussions, votes and resolutions, and of course Lucas is full of it. He really thnks the world acts like this, but the real world is not united the way he would have us believe his Republic was. The real Rome doesn't translate to hyperdrives and interstellar communication. All it takes to see that a place is being invaded is to send one guy with a camera. That invasions would have been all over the news, and the Republic would need to react in some way, even if its reaction was to sanction the attacks. Lucas does a bad job of waving this away.

So yeah, back to your main point: the only reason Palpatine's business works is that the heroes have no communication, another way of saying it only works because they are dumb.

[CowboyCurtis]

I agree Lucas's government would not work, but what is wrong with each system having its own military, a requirement for Federation membership, to be called on when some system or organization broke the rules. A galaxy-controlled military is unimportant in this scenario, just so long as there is a military of some kind. And yeah, there would be skirmishes, which is what the galactic senate is supposed to be there for:

Exactly. This is how Episode I should've played out.... The Queen's planet is threatened---who it is doesn't matter---but the Queen goes to the Chancellor--and it should've been Palpatine already in power---who offers support of several worlds' military in exchange for something... i.e., granting him greater power, or giving up technology which her planet possesses.....

...but the end all is, as you say, if the Republic doesn't have its own military, certainly then, there should've been worlds who throw a portion of their military support in the pot for the general good of the Republic.

[Helena]

I agree Lucas's government would not work, but what is wrong with each system having its own military, a requirement for Federation membership, to be called on when some system or organization broke the rules.  A galaxy-controlled military is unimportant in this scenario, just so long as there is a military of some kind.  And yeah, there would be skirmishes, which is what the galactic senate is supposed to be there for: if this is an analog to Rome, the senate is the representation of various provinces, and the rise of the Emperor is the rise of central authority.  In this scenario, when the TF's huge military swept in to attck the weakly-defended Naboo, dozens of local systems, arranged by the senate, would sweep in to police the event.

Yes, that might work as well (though I still think it would be easier to have a standing army than to try and piece one together every time a crisis came up), but there's nothing like that in the film either. As I pointed out earlier, Naboo can't even defend itself, let alone call on its allies.

[xenduck]

heres my version of a real-world comparison that everyone seems to crave.

the earth. it is comprised of many countries, each with its own military. yet the earth itself has no military of its own. then how is it that no one, or several, countries have ever taken over the whole earth? becuase the other countries unite their armies against the aggressors. but would such a united army be needed if virtually all countries were already united, with a common purpose? would the armies need to be united if there was a diplomatic corp supplemented by a large number of well-respected, highly-trained, super-powered peacekeepers? the army would only be needed if the earth were split in two.
further, it is my conjecture that an individual planet or a group of planets could not maintain there level of culture and technology without imports from other planets. if said group split from and angered the republic, it would flounder, stagnate, and die. imagine if the US were cut-off from foriegn oil.

This post has been edited by xenduck: 10 May 2005 - 04:21 PM