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Evil will always triumph because good is dumb A mini-essay

#46 User is offline   HK 47 Icon

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Posted 05 May 2005 - 01:42 AM

No they're not. The stormtroopers retain their original voices. How else could Luke and Han disguise themselves as stormtroopers. Their accents would be dead giveaways. (Cloned accents is also stupid by the way.) Lucas explains this by saying that there are recruits in the OT as well as more clone hosts. The question is of course "why"? Surely it would benefit the Emperor to only use clones. They blindly obey him, they seem to fight way better than OT stormtroopers, they are low maintenance and come in endless supplies.
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#47 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 05 May 2005 - 01:50 AM

Fair enough then... I read an interview with Temeura Morrison where he said he dubbed the stormies in the DVD SE OT... I may have misread it.
But he does do Boba... now that was a stupid thing... Boba who was short and lean and raspy is meant to be effectively the same Jango, who was tall and broad and had a deep yet crude voice.

This may be off-topic, but is it just me or did Jango Fett become completely inneffective as a menacing bad guy after we were told that the only reward he asked for lending his genes to the Kamino was that they make him a son (one of my private bugbears, like Helena and the elected monarchs of democratic planets, which is also one of my private bugbears)
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#48 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 05 May 2005 - 06:01 AM

QUOTE (xenduck @ May 4 2005, 11:40 PM)
Helena, I would be shocked if a student of politics had not read, or at least heard of, a people’s history of the united states. You seem to be under the impression that the government will right all your wrongs, that your leaders will never make a mistake, that the bureaucracy will fight for the little guy and that big business will never subvert human rights. Maybe that’s how it was in the old republic, but “the republic is not what it once was.” you are right about all the things the republic could have done but you are missing the most important theme expressed in the PT: corruption leads to destruction. Where is this corruption in your view of the republic? Indeed, if things worked the way you say they should then there would be no conflict, no story, no star wars. Palpatine, clever though he is, was merely ridding the wave of political upheaval. Then he brought that wave crashing down upon the innocent, and not so innocent,  masses.

xenduck, of course I'm aware that governments can do stupid things and that big business can gain undue influence over politicians. That is precisely why real governments have safeguards to prevent organisations like the Trade Federation gaining the ridiculous levels of power they have in the film. As JW Wells pointed out, governments stay in power by maintaining a monopoly on armed force and placing constitutional limits on the power of any NGOs. Yes, of course you still end up with corruption and other such problems - but the extent to which this is taken in the PT is beyond insane. Let's just look at a summary of the Republic's organisation:

1. It has no army of its own, and:
2. Some of the planets under its control have no proper armies or defence forces of their own, despite the fact that:
3. Powerful interest groups are allowed their own armies,
4. Not to mention their own seats in the Senate, and possibly even their own planets.
5. It has no way of dealing with a military crisis quickly, because:
6. The Senate has to set up a fucking commission to investigate the invasion of a planet, as:
7. They're not allowed to hear evidence themselves, due to:
8. Rules which were apparently written by 'bureaucrats', and not by the politicians who actually set up the Republic - and clearly were not checked before being adopted as standard Republic procedure.
9. The Supreme Chancellor can be removed from office by a simple-majority vote, prompted by:
10. Some random politician saying 'I propose a vote of no confidence in the Chancellor' in the middle of an unrelated debate,
11. Even when the Chancellor has technically done nothing wrong and is only following the Republic's official procedures.
12. People who invade planets and commit war crimes cannot be brought to justice despite overwhelming evidence, because:
13. The Supreme Chancellor somehow managed, immediately on taking office, to gain control of the fucking judiciary as well as the Senate.
14. Due to not having an army (or, apparently, a proper diplomatic service of their own), the Republic must rely on the Jedi to maintain order,
15. Even though they tell the Chancellor flat-out that they don't have the numbers and are in any case peacekeepers, not soldiers.
16. And when a crisis erupts that is too much for the Jedi (as it inevitably does), they only cope because of the sudden appearance of a mysterious clone army,
17. Which was created without the knowledge of the Republic or the Jedi,
18. And which the Republic are happy to take on without asking any questions about who created it, or why it was created.

In real life there's no way a government like this would last five minutes, let alone thousands of years. Veer is right that Palpatine would have come up with a different plan if this were not the case, but my point is that under these circumstances he doesn't even have to try - the Republic is a bloody lamb to the slaughter. As with Anakin's fall to the Dark Side, there's absolutely no mystery in why the Republic collapsed - the only mystery is why the hell it took so long.

As for societies outgrowing their dependence on violence - and you call me naive? There's no way that's ever going to happen, and I'll explain why: Governments are stuck in what's known as a 'prisoner's dilemma'. Of course it would be great if everyone agreed to abolish war and the military, but what if someone cheats - as someone inevitably will? They produce their own military forces, and as no one else has an army of their own, they're completely defenceless and will be easily conquered. No government can afford to risk this, which is why everyone ends up with their own army; it's not a particularly good solution but it's the only stable one.

The Republic in the PT has the absolute worst of both worlds. It doesn't have a military of its own, yet it allows other people to maintain their own armed forces, such as NGOs and private citizens. This isn't just asking for trouble, this is getting down on your knees and begging for it - and sure enough, it comes. In reality it would proably happen within days, at most, of the Republic's formation; in George Lucas's little 'alternate reality' it takes millennia for someone to notice that the Republic is a sitting duck, even though it's clearly full of ruthless and unscrupulous people and organisations. You begin to see the problem I have with this?
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

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Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#49 User is offline   HK 47 Icon

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Posted 05 May 2005 - 08:18 AM

QUOTE (Mnesymone @ May 5 2005, 01:50 AM)
Fair enough then... I read an interview with Temeura Morrison where he said he dubbed the stormies in the DVD SE OT... I may have misread it.
But he does do Boba... now that was a stupid thing... Boba who was short and lean and raspy is meant to be effectively the same Jango, who was tall and broad and had a deep yet crude voice.

This may be off-topic, but is it just me or did Jango Fett become completely inneffective as a menacing bad guy after we were told that the only reward he asked for lending his genes to the Kamino was that they make him a son (one of my private bugbears, like Helena and the elected monarchs of democratic planets, which is also one of my private bugbears)


Well not quite the only reward, according to the cloners he was paid a "considerable" sum, Boba was a bonus. In addition to your bugbear, I also have a few problems with him:
1. His name is Jango Fett, he is Boba Fetts dad. Let me repeat that, he is Boba Fetts dad.
2. He is also the grand daddy of all clone troopers.
3. We get to see his face.
4. He hires Zam to do his dirty work. Why? Why in heavens name would he rely on a less skilled bounty hunter to do "what he is best at"?
5. His death is about as interesting and meaningful as his sons, and that's not saying a little.

Sorry to be off topic as well, but Jango really, really annoys me.

This post has been edited by HK 47: 05 May 2005 - 08:19 AM

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#50 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 05 May 2005 - 10:43 AM

helena, again you are right about all you said, but your not getting my point. you talk about real life governments, but i said, and tell me if you agree, that a galactic government has no real-life comparison, the scale is much much too large. further, it is true that our society requires a military, but is it not possible that there maybe systems of government we simple humans havent thought of yet? are we doomed to reapeat ourselves for all eternity, or can we learn and grow? the galactic republic is as realistic as any space-opera should be. i dont know how the republic manged to be a peacful, unmilitant, society for a thousand years...but i dont know how a hyperdrive works either.
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#51 User is offline   The Other Icon

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Posted 05 May 2005 - 01:26 PM

QUOTE (xenduck @ May 5 2005, 07:43 AM)
helena, again you are right about all you said, but your not getting my point. you talk about real life governments, but i said, and tell me if you agree, that a galactic government has no real-life comparison, the scale is much much too large. further, it is true that our society requires a military, but is it not possible that there maybe systems of government we simple humans havent thought of yet? are we doomed to reapeat ourselves for all eternity, or can we learn and grow? the galactic republic is as realistic as any space-opera should be. i dont know how the republic manged to be a peacful, unmilitant, society for a thousand years...but i dont know how a hyperdrive works either.



In my opinion Xenduck a galactic government will always have a real-life comparison because it should be based on a real-life government just on a much larger scale. The representatives speak for an entire plant rather than just a certain region. They are all assembled at the galactic capital and everything government related is hashed out.

I agree that there could be forms of government that humans have not thought up yet, but if a writer wants to throw ideas from different forms together to come up with something new they have to pick something that will work. The Republic that Lucas has thought up does not work. In his quest for political intrigue he has only managed to create a trilogy with an endless amount of plot holes.

For the Hyperdrive all that the really needs to be known is that the people in the galaxy have found a resource that provides an infinite amount of power which allows the vehicle to move at and beyond the speed of light. The nitty gritty details of how it does this and how it breaks down for Han Solo are not important to the plot as a whole and thus the audience can be given the simple explanation: "in this realm of reality it just IS."

This same logic however won't fly with explaining the workings of the Republic because Lucas felt the need to make the inner workings of the government important to the plot. But instead of thinking up a nice tight concept that would avoid all the things Helena mentioned in her essay he just made all the characters take stupid pills every morning.

This post has been edited by The Other: 05 May 2005 - 01:32 PM

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#52 User is offline   DragonLord Icon

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Posted 05 May 2005 - 01:49 PM

I have a question.

Since the republic doesn't have an army of its own at all, and somehow Palpatine raised the funds to pay the Kaminos to construct this huge clonearmy (and like someone said, where the hell did the starships come from?), why all the games with Amidala and the rest of the senators? Why go the long way of becoming the new chancellor and then dissolve the senate etc etc

Just show up at the next meeting with 1000000000 stormtroopers and say: "Your republic is dead. I proclaim myself to be the Emperor of the fallen republic. Join me or die. Does anybody have a problem with this?"



It would save the Palpatine and ourselves a lot of time...
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#53 User is offline   littlejerryseinfeld Icon

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Posted 05 May 2005 - 02:31 PM

QUOTE (xenduck @ May 4 2005, 05:40 PM)
littlejerryseinfeld, I have read Nietzsche, Machiavelli, and Foucault. I know that by virtue of violence are all other virtues are upheld. But I have also read Plato, More, and Voltaire. There is hope that sentient beings can out-grow their dependence on violence. That one day society will be ruled by reason and compromise. That’s how I see the old republic, before it was ruined by greedy, squabbling delegates, before the dark times, before the empire. if the republic required a military to enforce its laws, then how is it more civilized than the empire?


easy. if the republic used that army to impose just laws that were created by a representative democracy. whereas the empire used the army to intimidate, control, and terrorize - and impose unjust laws created by a dictatorship.

see the difference?

i applaud your ability to read and reguritate the great thinkers' writings, however, no matter how civilized a society is, there will always be a small percentage of people that will break laws - that you will not be able to 'reason' or 'compromise' with.

This post has been edited by littlejerryseinfeld: 05 May 2005 - 02:32 PM

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#54 User is offline   JW Wells Icon

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Posted 05 May 2005 - 03:08 PM

QUOTE (xenduck @ May 4 2005, 05:40 PM)
I have read Nietzsche, Machiavelli, and Foucault. I know that by virtue of violence are all other virtues are upheld. But I have also read Plato, More, and Voltaire. There is hope that sentient beings can out-grow their dependence on violence.


Sure, but I feel I should point out that Plato's "Republic" and More's "Utopia" both deal fairly extensively with the military organization of their respective ideal states. Neither assumes that even a hypothetical state could exist in a world completely free of violence.
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#55 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 05:01 AM

QUOTE (DragonLord @ May 5 2005, 07:49 PM)
I have a question.

Since the republic doesn't have an army of its own at all, and somehow Palpatine raised the funds to pay the Kaminos to construct this huge clonearmy (and like someone said, where the hell did the starships come from?), why all the games with Amidala and the rest of the senators? Why go the long way of becoming the new chancellor and then dissolve the senate etc etc

Just show up at the next meeting with 1000000000 stormtroopers and say: "Your republic is dead. I proclaim myself to be the Emperor of the fallen republic. Join me or die. Does anybody have a problem with this?"
It would save the Palpatine and ourselves a lot of time...

Actually, this occured to me as well. Why bother with all the 'conspiracy' nonsense when the Republic isn't capable of defending itself anyway? Palpatine could have just allied his clones with the Separatist droids and been unstoppable - he wouldn't even need Anakin! We see from that battle in AotC that the Jedi wouldn't have a chance, and since the Republic doesn't have an army of its own, who else is there?
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#56 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 03:33 PM

"easy. if the republic used that army to impose just laws that were created by a representative democracy. whereas the empire used the army to intimidate, control, and terrorize - and impose unjust laws created by a dictatorship.

see the difference?"

if you read what i wrote, i asked "if the republic required a military to enforce its laws, then how is it more civilized than the empire?"

if the laws were just then why would they need to be imposed? they would be excepted. and yes some would act unlawfully but do you need a military to handle that? if it was all-important for the republic to have a military to control its citizens than it was not 'civilized'. if there are ways of enforcing some laws without violence, then maybe it is possible to enforce ALL laws without violence.

"Sure, but I feel I should point out that Plato's "Republic" and More's "Utopia" both deal fairly extensively with the military organization of their respective ideal states. Neither assumes that even a hypothetical state could exist in a world completely free of violence. "

utopia does not have a military, when threatend by an outside force they call on other outside forces to protect them. there is nothing viable outside the republic (just a few backwater planets on the fringe) to attack or defend. and i didnt mean only respublica. plato believed anything could be solved with logic if the world could only start over. perhaps the republic had that chance. what about brave new world, where was there military? what about logan's run? what about the whinems and the floating island from gulliver's travels? lucas isnt the only one.
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#57 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 04:01 PM

if the laws were just then why would they need to be imposed? they would be excepted. and yes some would act unlawfully but do you need a military to handle that? if it was all-important for the republic to have a military to control its citizens than it was not 'civilized'. if there are ways of enforcing some laws without violence, then maybe it is possible to enforce ALL laws without violence.

Then why did we need Jedi? How can there be just laws and just people when 1) testing is used to determine if you are Jedi 2) They don't enforce their "just laws?" It starting to sound like the U.N., and even THEY had a military!!

utopia does not have a military, when threatend by an outside force they call on other outside forces to protect them. there is nothing viable outside the republic (just a few backwater planets on the fringe) to attack or defend. and i didnt mean only respublica. plato believed anything could be solved with logic if the world could only start over. (LOL!!! Plato funny...) perhaps the republic had that chance. what about brave new world, where was there military? what about logan's run? what about the whinems and the floating island from gulliver's travels? lucas isnt the only one.


And as we've pointed out countless times... you will always needs some form of armed force to settle internal dispute, labor uprisings, etc., etc., there are other threats those of an internal source.

You sound exceedingly naive, Xenduck. You're claiming this is a somewhat a Utopia Republic, but from what has been shown in the PT, it is FAR FROM IT!!! It is a badly put together concept. As Helena pointed out.... special interest group with its own military.... small planets without effective military of their own... the Republic should've had a military. Helena is on target with her points.

And can I say as an aside... just because you have military power, does NOT make you a corrupt society, despite what everyone seems to fill our heads with nowadays. A military is necessary, and always will be.
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#58 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 01:59 PM

allow me to better explain myself. here i am arguing that a society can exist without violence-which i believe is possible while i also recognise that such a society is highly improbable-but thats not my point. i never meant to suggest that the republic did not sometimes resort to violence. common sense tells us that no government can maintain order without the threat of force. but common sense also tells us that a military is not always needed to enforce(thats like surgery with a chainsaw).

for me, this whole debate hinges on wether or not it can be agreed that the republic, for at least a thousand years, percieved no large-scale external threat. especially not one that would warrant a standing, large-scale, 'war-machine'.

so we must look internally for trouble. like any known government, the republic almost certainly has a compotent police-force (comprable to the FBI) and a militia (comprable to the national guard). also, as we see that planets maintain their own armies, i imagine that each system, when they entered into the republic, pledged military or finacial support when called upon by the senate. this, combined with the full jedi order, seems more-than-adequetly up to the challenge of peacekeeping.

nothing short of a full-scale civil war would require a military. as i have said many times, the republic of TPM and AOTC is not an example of how the republic is supposed to work; this is demonstrated frequently throughout. had the republic not been controlled by a hierarchy of evil, conspiring, megalomaniacs, the separatist threat would have been countered much more effectively. possibly without leading to war.

cowboycurtis, you call me naive, but there you sit making assumptions about the eternal future of all societies. have you ever considered that what we know isnt all there is to know?

i agree, a military does not make you corrupt. its how you use it. it seems a trend in the history of human governments that the larger your military, the more often your misuse.

This post has been edited by xenduck: 07 May 2005 - 02:01 PM

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#59 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 11:38 PM

cowboycurtis, you call me naive, but there you sit making assumptions about the eternal future of all societies. have you ever considered that what we know isnt all there is to know?

I write fiction.... I draw cartoons and comic stories about fantastic things, other worlds, etc---yeah, of course I can imagine other societies and such....

---BUT let's take a look here. OT = Empire has been compared to the Nazi Regime, and has been compared to the Roman Empire as well---earthly references... earthly comparisons.

You honestly think that the PT would/should be any different? As a GOOD screen writer, you want a reference or a setting that is accessible and identifiable, especially when dealing with a franchise like Star Wars (the OT) that has capture a general audience. PT does not do this. It alienates and muddles. It is not accessible because it doesn't make sense, and having someone come along and try to explain it through convoluted, logic-leaping meanderings is even LESS accessible. Lucas has lost his general audience with this. He should've been more on the ball.
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#60 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 07:08 AM

xenduck, the society we see in the Prequels is not some kind of futuristic utopia. It's a society almost exactly like ours - full of selfishness, violence, corruption and treachery. We see how the Republic's government is organised and it's pretty much like any real-life supranational government, except without any of the safeguards that allow such organisations to function in real life. It doesn't work, it never could work, and the reason you can't tell me how the Republic survived for so long is because there is no conceivable way it could have done so. And I'm getting fed up to the back teeth of this argument, so I suggest you go ahead and live in your fluffy little world, while the rest of us go back to the real world - where, thank God, politicians understand why an army is necessary for self-defence and the maintenance of order.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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