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Evil will always triumph because good is dumb A mini-essay

#31 User is offline   Lord Aquaman Icon

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 11:20 AM

Good stuff, I like the last two a lot.

You'll add more on after seeing the movie, right?
I am the Fisher King.

I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an obi-wan to go.
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#32 User is offline   littlejerryseinfeld Icon

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 11:50 AM

QUOTE (xenduck @ May 3 2005, 06:02 PM)
In my opinion, having my planet invaded would strength my resolve in banning armies all together, then no one can invade anyone, ever.


BUT HOW WOULD YOU IMPOSE THE BAN?! HOW WOULD YOU MAKE SURE LAWS ARE OBEYED?!

WITH AN ARMY!

look, you can all the feel-good, touchy-feely, laws you want, but if you cannot enforce them, what's the point?

you are right about one thing: you truly are a student of nothing.
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#33 User is offline   HK 47 Icon

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 12:01 PM

QUOTE (Helena @ May 4 2005, 07:01 AM)
6. If Obi-Wan had finished Anakin off after their duel.
It seems that Obi-Wan prefers to leave his old Ďfriendí to burn to death, slowly and agonisingly, rather than finishing him off quickly and cleanly with a lightsaber. Utter scumbag as he is, not even Anakin deserves to die like that.  As it happens, this cruel and completely un-Jedi-like act will allow Anakin to survive as Vader, hastening the destruction of the Jedi Order and prolonging the Galaxyís suffering for decades.


I actually think that he does deserve it. Murdering children makes Anakin a bit worse than an "utter scumbag".

Lucas could've fixed the part where Obi-Wan walks away by instead having him offer Anakin his hand. Instead of accepting salvation, Anakin would try to kill Obi-Wan and subsequently plunges into the lava. Clichť? Perhaps, but better than what the spoilers say.
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#34 User is offline   ernesttomlinson Icon

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 02:44 PM

"You're pure dagnasty evil! It's just a fact!" Obi-Wan Kenobi to Anakin, dangling over the lava pit, in A Lost Hope

And Anakin gets a lot of bodyguard duty, doesn't he? Gee, it almost sounds like a crude plot device to get Anakin and Amidala, and then Anakin and Palpatine, into constant contact with another but Lucas must be a better writer than that, huh? -rolls eyes-

I had an amusing thought. It's been noted how the only foreshadowing in Episode II of Anakin's and Palpatine's, ah, close professional relationship was one inexplicable scene where Anakin praises Palpy for his "guidance" on something or other. Meanwhile Lucas spends much, much too long setting up Annie's fine romance with Amidala. Suppose he reversed it? I can imagine an Episode II that carefully sets up Anakin's falling under Palpatine's spell but then all we know of Amidala comes from one confusing scene. Maybe we see Anakin slipping a wedding ring onto Amidala's finger. Amidala says, "It seems that your stalking of me has finally paid off." "Your stupidity, more than my stalking," Annie replies. And that's that.
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#35 User is offline   Just another wretched fan Icon

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 03:12 PM

i like it

what drive me nuts is that on paper the romance looked good but the plot as a whole sucked

in TPM, on paper the plot at a whole looked good but the inconsistancies sucked.

This post has been edited by Just another wretched fan: 04 May 2005 - 03:15 PM

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#36 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 03:58 PM

QUOTE
Amidala says, "It seems that your stalking of me has finally paid off." "Your stupidity, more than my stalking," Annie replies. And that's that.
mangifico!

The other thing that kind of gets me is Anakin's killing of the defenseless Dooku. Why? Luke skywalker wouldn't kill Vader even after the guy tortured his friends and sliced off his hand and killed who knows how many people including his own brother and sister in law (aunt and uncle to Luke!)

And yet Anakin considers it justified because Dooku:

Placed him in an easily escapable yet overly elaborate trap,
Cut off his arm because he made a DUMBFUCK move in a duel,
Got a few clones and droids killed,
And kidnapped some guy Anakin barely knew.

And from this Anakin gains a relentless urge for vengeance? Come on! Why would it have been so difficult for Lucas to link the death of Anakin's mother to Dooku? Then Anakin would have had a real reason to kill Dooku and there would have been a point to the death of Shmi.

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#37 User is offline   Just another wretched fan Icon

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 04:28 PM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ May 4 2005, 03:58 PM)
And from this Anakin gains a relentless urge for vengeance? Come on! Why would it have been so difficult for Lucas to link the death of Anakin's mother to Dooku? Then Anakin would have had a real reason to kill Dooku and there would have been a point to the death of Shmi.


exactly.
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#38 User is offline   JW Wells Icon

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 05:25 PM

QUOTE (xenduck @ May 3 2005, 06:02 PM)
My first thought is that the reason there has been no war for a thousand years is because there were no armies to fight in them. And if the republic is indeed galactic, then what outside threats could there be? Since no other galaxies are mentioned. My next thought was that each planet probably has laws banning a military.


Man, this is a standing target. But if there had been no wars for a thousand years, why are there oodles of weapons lying around? Naboo is the least credible military power imaginable, yet it has starfighters, blaster pistols, grenades, etc. lying around - purchased from off-world. The Republic has loads of big Star Destroyer-like warships available on short notice at the end of AOTC. Weapons are *expensive*, they take specialized training to know how to design them, and no company producing starfighters would still be in business after fifty years without war, let alone a thousand. The business requires too much loot, too many people, and too many $500 hammers to be kept running indefinitely with no wars to fight.

QUOTE (xenduck @ May 3 2005, 06:02 PM)
In the same way the Tokugawa shogunate promoted peace by banning weapons from civilians. Peace was kept by the samurai. I hope everyone can recognize the parallels between samurai and jedi.


Er, the Tokugawa shogunate was armed to the teeth, and had everyone who so much as looked at them cross-eyed put to death. A good analog for the PT Republic they ain't.

Really, this is the biggest head-scratcher of them all. Governments maintain power by maintaining a monopoly on armed force. National governments didn't really get rolling until they had enough money to raise armies to put down local magnates whose scuffling put the "feud" into "feudal". If the Republic had no army, there is no way it could have lasted ten years, let alone ten thousand, while non-state actors like the TF had huge armies and navies. States unwilling to defend themselves do not survive.

And the clone army is crazy: nobody outside of Palpatine and Tyrannus knew about it, and the Republic at large is expected to be okay with this? Picture the modern analog: For the sake of argument, the EU is without military forces of any kind, and they are menaced by, for the sake of argument, a huge invading Russian army. If the EU commish was to go on TV and announce that all was well because they had ten million Chinese soldiers concealed in salt mines throughout the continent who would now be acting as the EU army, don't you think somebody would wonder what was going on? I hope for the credibility of ROTS that some character mentions that some people have misgivings about the clone army.
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#39 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 05:40 PM

Helena, I would be shocked if a student of politics had not read, or at least heard of, a peopleís history of the united states. You seem to be under the impression that the government will right all your wrongs, that your leaders will never make a mistake, that the bureaucracy will fight for the little guy and that big business will never subvert human rights. Maybe thatís how it was in the old republic, but ďthe republic is not what it once was.Ē you are right about all the things the republic could have done but you are missing the most important theme expressed in the PT: corruption leads to destruction. Where is this corruption in your view of the republic? Indeed, if things worked the way you say they should then there would be no conflict, no story, no star wars. Palpatine, clever though he is, was merely ridding the wave of political upheaval. Then he brought that wave crashing down upon the innocent, and not so innocent, masses.
yes, I said I was a student of nothing. i also said these were 'playful' rebuttals. you make valid points and im not saying they're wrong. what im saying is that you are making assumptions about a government without any real comparisons in human history. so in return, I make a few
assumptions of my own, they are only different in that my assumptions make the story work. George has created a big galaxy, he cant sustain it on his own in a couple hours of film. it requires all our imaginations to make it work. So what if not all the explanations are dangled in front of you? Whatís wrong with a movie that requires you to think?
I wrote out point for point rebuttals of your point for point rebuttals to my point for my point rebuttals, but does anyone want to see them? would they serve a purpose? I have failed to convince all of you just as all of you have failed to convince me.

littlejerryseinfeld, I have read Nietzsche, Machiavelli, and Foucault. I know that by virtue of violence are all other virtues are upheld. But I have also read Plato, More, and Voltaire. There is hope that sentient beings can out-grow their dependence on violence. That one day society will be ruled by reason and compromise. Thatís how I see the old republic, before it was ruined by greedy, squabbling delegates, before the dark times, before the empire. if the republic required a military to enforce its laws, then how is it more civilized than the empire?
Officer! officer! quick! all my money was stolen by a man in flannel!
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#40 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 06:58 PM

But there IS no corruption. We're constantly told that everyone is corrupt or inefficient - the Jedi, the former chancellor, the senate, probably Amidala is the only one who is somehow immune because she's still a minor and, excepting some dodgy dialogue in AOTC, is a pure hearted virgin or something for the first two movies. Lucas constantly tells us that everyone is corrupt but he never shows it. Rather, they just come off as being stupid.

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#41 User is offline   Veer Icon

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 07:39 PM

Helena, nice points, but i feel some need addressing. First off, your initial rationale is wrong because none of the points you listed (while plot-holes in themselves) are the result of a cause and effect of the Emperors plan. Instead, the Emperor made his plan knowing those points, and if any of those had changed, the plan would have changed accordingly. While it's been several years since I watched TPM, I saw Palpatines basic plan as to create a crisis to launch himself into the position of chancellor, and have the crisis resolve itself with him in control. There are several in movie plot-holes with this plan, namely why the TF agreed to go along with it in the first place, and why they stuck with the 'Dark side' after they so obviously lost. Anakin, or the finding of Anakin never formed part of this 'plan', atleast there is nothing in the movie that I remember to point that he was.

1. If the Republic had its own army.

I agree when I imagined what the Republic was like before the Empire I assumed they must of had a military. In fact I believed that the Empire arose because the military took over control from the civilian populace, like a coup. BUT, it is not absolutely necessary for the republic to have a galactic military. Perhaps the word 'republic' is redundant in describing what is shown in TPM. The way the republic is portrayed in the PT is as a loose confederation of states/planets. Each planet seems to have there own laws and armed forces - we know the Gungans have an army (a rather sad one), and supposedly from the OT we know Alderan has no army. The republic is sort of like the UN then, a huge debating club. Maybe all they really do is standardize weights and measures across the galaxy. If there are any "strikes, civil unrest, large-scale organised crime, terrorist attacks, skirmishes between planets", the Jedi, protectors of peace and justice, are there to take care of that, in conjunction with local planet forces. The republic not having its own army is not a huge plot hole IMO.

2. If the Republic had proper procedures for dealing with such incidents.

To address your question, Dooku in ATOC mentions "10,00 more systems" will join the separatists, pointing to a republic of atleast very many more. That said, you make the assumption that the republic would have a sensible government, ignoring that very few governments are, in fact sensible. Clearly the situation of a government sitting around tied in knots while a crisis is brewing is not irrational, no matter what laws or procedures they may have in place. Certainly it seems standard procedure that the Jedi will resolve such matters, using 'aggressive negotiations' (sad.gif) if necessary.

3. If the Republic didnít allow the TF their own army and Senate representatives.

Well, who is to say that the TF don't 'own' several planets, and therefore may infact have more that one representative in the senate? It's quite possible that the TF is a federation of planets involved in, and controlling a significant part of, intergalactic trade. They do afterall need a homeworld where they can build all those droids and Donuts they use as spaceships.

4. If Naboo had its own army.

Naboo most probably does have their own army, or militia. The Gungans we know have theirs. The invasion took Naboo was taken by surprise, so they probably didn't have time to mobilise their militia. But it's not compulsory that Naboo have a large standing army.

5. If the Senate had believed Amidalaís account of the invasion.

Well, it's a huge debating club as I mentioned. Some obviously did believe, others (probably in the pay of the TF) did not, or choose to delay action in favour of endless debate on what to do about it. Not so different from politics in the world today.

6. If it werenít quite so easy to get rid of the Supreme Chancellor.

Perhaps, though the manner in which they removed Valorum is not really relevant to the plot as much as the circumstances which led to his removal and replacement by Palpatine. The same with Palpatine being granted 'emergency powers' in AOTC. It wouldn't really have helped either movie if we got a whole: 'now lets debate this for 2-3 weeks, commission a Starr report, and get the courts involved, and let the lower and upper house vote to impeach by a 2/3rd majority as long a quorum is present.'

7. If Obi-Wan hadnít agreed to train Anakin against his better judgment.

That's a good point. Given what we know of Obi-wans and Anakins relationship before Qui-gons death, it makes no sense for Obi-wan to train Anakin. It's also not clear why Qui-Gon wants to train that little brat either. But Anakin is not essential to the Emperors plan, atleast that is the way the PT has portrayed it so far. The Emperor planned to have Obi-wan & Qui-Gon killed by Maul afterall. Anakin is mostly irrelevant to the 'plan'. Most of the plan was carried out by Dooku, and the Jedi behaving like imbeciles.

8. If the Jedi Council hadnít agreed to let Anakin be trained against their better judgement./b]

Yes, good idea. Wouldn't have made a difference though. Afterall I thought that there really was no such thing as a Jedi council, so Obi-wan training Anakin in exile would not have been huge problem to grasp.

[b]9. If the Jedi (or anyone else) had freed Anakinís mother from slavery.


Well, maybe the Jedi believe in Karma. Anyway, even if they had freed her, the emperor could have easily killed her off some other way, seeing how the Jedi have a collective IQ of 10.

This post has been edited by Veer: 04 May 2005 - 07:43 PM

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#42 User is offline   Veer Icon

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 08:54 PM

My views on Part 2:

1. If the Republic had its own army, part 2.

Again, there was no dire need for the Republic to have it's own army after the Naboo incident. What happened to Naboo, was afterall Naboos problem, and it seemed to resolve itself with one 9 year old and a starfighter. In AOTC we do know however that there are 'armies' that the republic uses - count Dooku says the separatists will 'have an army greater than any other' or some such thing. This based with other evidence seems to point that the Jedi go to trouble spots, where they use the local systems/or regions armies in negotiations. These obviously aren't adequate to fight the separatists, thus the debate on the 'Grand Army of the republic' at the beginning to AOTC.

2. If the Republic had a truly independent judiciary.

Nute Gunnary is a minor character, but besides, the emperor is a dark Jedi, and no doubt he influenced the Judges the same way he influenced the TF in the first place, not to mention much of the senate. It's a minor quibble, but it does give the separatists a point. Who wants to be part of this republic anyway?

3. If the Jedi hadnít continued to train Anakin, despite the fact that he clearly isnít suited to the Jedi path.

Yes, but Anakin is largely immaterial to the Emperors plan, which was to have Obi-wan discover the droid army, then have Dooku begin the separatist movement, causing the senate to grant Palpatine emergency powers to use the clone army. Anakin just happens to be on Genosis by accident.

4. If the Jedi hadnít allowed Anakin to associate with Palpatine during his training.

Minor point, the Jedi obviously trust Palpatine so why would they have barred Anakin from associating with him? Certainly the Jedi don't seem to concerned by anything in the PT - Archives deleted? Hmmmm..... Mysterious Clone Army ordered by a Jedi dead for 10 years? Hmmmm.... Template for said Clones based on a Bounty Hunter in the pay of the enemy? Hmmmm.... Anakin in great pain? Hmmm.... Anakin in Love with Amidala? 'Eh? Didn't see that coming!' . With all that, why would they be concerned with a few meetings with the Chancellor?

5. If the Jedi hadnít assigned Anakin to protect Amidala.

Obi-wans fault here. Besides, so point above. The Jedi are clueless about a lot of things, and don't care too much about others. There are some good reasons of assigning Anakin to protect the princess - There aren't that many spare Jedi to protect her. It's a milk run, be an easy first assignment for Anakin. Anakin and Amidala are familiar with each other. Clearly it must as been as much as a surprise to them as too us that Amidala would have returned Anakins feelings.

6. If Amidala hadnít chosen Jar Jar to stand in for her in the Senate.

Maybe it was procedure.... with Gungans and the Naboo now 'sharing' the planet, Jar Jar was possibly the deputy. Ofcourse I don't see why Palpatine couldn't have 'influenced' some other senator to nominate him. Clearly he had a lot of supporters. Maybe he thought it was better is the senator from his greatest opponent (on the military debate) planet voted for him, it would shut up the critics.

7. If the Senate hadnít permitted Jar Jar to stand in for Amidala.

Don't see how they could have done this. Nor why would they.

8. If the Jedi had noticed the change in Anakin after the Sand People incident.

Change? What change? Yoda mentions Anakin is in pain, presumably because of the death of Shimi. But he's still the spoilt whinny brat. They can't sense his rage, nor his love anyway. Makes no sense but then Anakins actions are hardly integral to the plot.

9. If Amidala or Qui-Gon had told the Jedi about the Sand People incident.

I don't accept Qui-Gon being in the movie, let alone able to communicate with anyone . As for Amidala, why would she rat out the boy she loved, knowing he would probably be expelled from the Jedi order? But then, knowing the Jedi in the PT being on some kind of crack, Obi-wan would probably given Anakin a lecture on 'controlling his feelings' and let bygones be bygones.

10. If the Jedi had listened to Dooku.

Well, it does occur to Obi-wan that he maybe be telling the truth, and Mace advices to 'keep a closer watch on the senate'. Yoda thinks Dooku is lying though, which sort of plausible, because he does lie about some other things, like Jango Fett. Ruins Yodas character, but that is the PT.

11. If the Republic and Jedi had been more wary of taking on a clone army.

Good point. Clearly using the army on Genosis was unavoidable if they didn't all want to die. But after that why they choose to associate, no less lead the army, makes no sense. Clearly after Genosis the decision to use the Army was the Chancellors and the senates, but it would have made more sense if the Jedi said 'we don't want to be any part of this'. That would ofcourse have them branded as traitors I would imagine, and the Jedi as wusses, so they obviously didn't take that route.
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#43 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 09:03 PM

One of the little doobies about the Republic and its military that I raised... last November I think - was the lack of an army to army transition.

The Kamino cloned some hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of soldiers. They also armoured them and armed them. When the clone army arrives on Geonosis, they arrive in Star-destroyer esque capital warship/troop carriers, which launch handy gunships that drop walking tanks and launch rockets - they also have those assault cannons that look like radar dishes.

Where did these come from?
The Kamino? From their demeanour they appear to be cold civil scientists and pacifists - though they make saber darts for some reason. They also don't have any apparent shipyards - so where did they build the ships for the clone army.

The Republic? Even more unconvincing - if the Republic had capital warships and handy ground assault machinery but no army ... well - its like having all the trappings of a military without a military itself.

So - not only is the lack of an army unconvincing, the army itself is fraught with issues.

One final nitpick - every clone soldier was Jango Fett - all roughly six-foot, probably 90 kilo maori man... then Boba fett in OT is a 5'6'' short slim bugger with a raspy voice - and the stormtroopers are of variable sizes, ranging from the guy who hits his head on the door to the short fellas - so how are we supposed to believe that they are clones.
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#44 User is offline   Veer Icon

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 09:22 PM

QUOTE (Mnesymone @ May 4 2005, 07:03 PM)
The Kamino cloned some hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of soldiers. They also armoured them and armed them. When the clone army arrives on Geonosis, they arrive in Star-destroyer esque capital warship/troop carriers, which launch handy gunships that drop walking tanks and launch rockets - they also have those assault cannons that look like radar dishes.

Where did these come from?


Plot hole #1. But it is a satisfactory answer to say they came from the Kamino, or if they weren't built by the Kamnio were bult by some other mysterious entity and shipped to Kamino. After all the clone troopers come fully trained in the use of these machines, so they must have been using them for some time.

QUOTE (Mnesymone @ May 4 2005, 07:03 PM)
One final nitpick - every clone soldier was Jango Fett - all roughly six-foot, probably 90 kilo maori man... then Boba fett in OT is a 5'6'' short slim bugger with a raspy voice - and the stormtroopers are of variable sizes, ranging from the guy who hits his head on the door to the short fellas - so how are we supposed to believe that they are clones.


Simple answer. In the OT they are no longer clones. This should be obvious through their different voices alone, and that none of the officers are clones. Clearly after the clone war was over, the Empire began a recruitment drive, but skipped the training, and recycled the armour, but mothballed the weapons.
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#45 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 05 May 2005 - 01:17 AM

In his new revisionist histories, the DVD editions - Boba Fett's voice is redone by Temeura Morrison as are all the Stormtroopers...
In the original OT they were just blokes trained as soldiers, but part of the whole super special edition thing...
That's one of the many things I don't understand about Lucas these days...

So my above post was a criticism of the revisionist history, not the originals. Any answers...?
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