[Veer]

barend, your right, we can go back and forth, up and down, but in the end none of us can know what george was really thinking when he introduced midichlorians.

Well it's really very simple.

George had a dilemma. He had to portray Anakin Skywalker as someone who was 'exceptionally strong in the force' so that the Jedi would take an interest in him. There were two says he could do this - he could write a great script, like he did with Luke in ANH, or he could simply throw in midicholrians, give Anakin double the number of midis as the greatest Jedi we know about (Yoda), and that's that.

He obviously choose the latter. It's a cop out!

[Grand Moff Lebowski]

And why is Yoda so great again?

Maybe the Darkside is stronger.....according to the PT.

It stings....

[njamilla]

When there are no prequel gushers (Jariten excepted of course) on the forum, we have intelligent and civilised discussions.  But when we DO have gushers, the forum just becomes chaotic.  Thousands of new pointless threads are made, every second post contains the phrase "... is badass" and I can't stand it.

LOL.

To quote Madam Covax:
If the reason to hate is "it sucks", then the reason to like is "it is cool".

[Richard]

Anyone feel free to correct me on this, but I think most people have a problem with the prequels because episodes 4,5 & 6 were written first, and were some-what consistent, and then the episodes 1,2 & 3 were written and are inconsistent with the originals, which then leads to people having to make excuses and come up with far-fetched explanations of how 1,2 & 3 fit in with 4,5 & 6. Lucas made the Star Wars universe, and yes it is 'his'. However, 4,5 & 6 were the start of this universe, and since then he has back-pedalled, changed rules, added things, removed things in episodes 1,2 & 3. Many of these things are not consistent with his original universe, and it seems like if he ever DID have a consistent, coherent plot to run through all the movies, he has recently just altered it and added things in to be cool and to appeal to the audience, rather than to keep in line with the original concepts.

[diligent_d]

Many of these things are not consistent with his original universe, and it seems like if he ever DID have a consistent, coherent plot to run through all the movies, he has recently just altered it and added things in to be cool and to appeal to the audience, rather than to keep in line with the original concepts.

Hence the Dancing General Yoda.

[barend]

...and then the episodes 1,2 & 3 were written and are inconsistent with the originals, which then leads to people having to make excuses and come up with far-fetched explanations of how 1,2 & 3 fit in with 4,5 & 6. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and this is what draws the gushers out into the open and exposes them for what they are...

If the PTs were any good, people would not have to make excuses for the writer.

They should match, that is what prequels are all about.
When making a series that has a gap in production, certain things are overlooked...
if time has taken it's toll, you can replace an actor for a new instalment, technology can improve (we saw this with gollum in LOTR from the first to the second), you can even change the filmmaking style... but by fuck, the story had better match!!!

And if it doesn't, and you defend it, then you are to blame for why the public gets ripped off so often...

I’ve worked on a few short films, acting, doing the soundtrack, storyboards, etc.
And whenever i sit in script readings I always point out any inconsistencies to make sure that the damn thing makes sense...

The less questions people have to ask about the continuity of the film, the more time they can devote to asking questions the makers of the film intended you to ask... if you have to ask why someone remembers someone who dies before they could even open their eyes, then there is no true depth to this film.

people worshiped star wars for a reason, it made them want to believe in something that was bigger.... the OT had depth to it, or at least explored ideas that had depth... the questions that were asked there led to countless games, and fiction, and comic books, and so on... it inspired people.
the PT leaves everyone asking questions about script and character continuity, blue/green screens and CGI-SFX practices... filmmaking motivation, and so on...

and that falls far short of the mark one should strive to achieve in creating a story.!!!

This post has been edited by barend: 23 May 2005 - 08:11 PM

[ForceHippo]

people worshiped star wars for a reason, it made them want to believe in something that was bigger.... the OT had depth to it, or at least explored ideas that had depth... the questions that were asked there led to countless games, and fiction, and comic books, and so on... it inspired people.
the PT leaves everyone asking questions about script and character continuity, blue/green screens and CGI-SFX practices... filmmaking motivation, and so on...

and that falls far short of the mark one should strive to achieve in creating a story.!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The PT clearly falls short of the mark of the OT in several respects, but I think you underestimate the task of Lucas & Co in creating a coherent story. The OT ought to be one of the most overanalysed series of films of all times. Thousands of fans who are able to quote every single line from 6 hours of films should present even the most talented storyteller with a bit of a dilemma. I would suggest that inconsistencies and ambiguities were inevitable if the ambition was to tell a story. Otherwise the OT would have been quite a strait-jacket for GeorgieBoy. Then on the other hand, the story should have been told better, but that is another matter..

Regarding midichlorians, it may have been a cheap way of doing it, but it was nevertheless an efficient way of explaining that the boy had the potential to become even more powerful than the litte green master himself. This is merely a scientific explanation giving greater insights to the workings of the force, which in my opinion not must be a bad thing.

[Richard]

I would suggest that inconsistencies and ambiguities were inevitable if the ambition was to tell a story. Otherwise the OT would have been quite a strait-jacket for GeorgieBoy. Then on the other hand, the story should have been told better, but that is another matter..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He should already have had the ideas for the prequels. The trouble is that he appears to have gone back and altered so many of his original ideas so that they no longer work with his original ideas. I think one can see the difference in the star wars universe in teh prequels and the originals, not just in effects and fight scenes, but just in the concepts and ideas like how the force works and the technology that is available to the characters.

A New Hope was labelled as Episode 4 from the start. This shows that Lucas already had at least some idea of the previous 3 episodes. At that time, there is no way that he had all the ideas that are present in the prequel films now, because they really don't fit in with the originals. Back then, when Episode 4 was made, I imagine that episodes 1,2 and 3 actually did fit in with the story and the concepts flowed through all 6 scripts. But as he tackled 4,5 and 6 so long ago, he now has new ideas that he wanted to include (for whatever reason) and so he adds them into 1,2 and 3, evne though it is not consistent with 4,5 and 6. Like I said before, if he had never done 4,5 and 6, and was to do them now, then he would probably have them fit in with the concepts of 1,2 and 3. But what he's done is 4,5 and 6 first, then not made 1,2 and 3 fit in with those.

[xenduck]

"and this is what draws the gushers out into the open and exposes them for what they are...

If the PTs were any good, people would not have to make excuses for the writer."

im sick of bashers saying this. i dont make excuses, im trying to tell you the way i understood the story. if you dont want an explanation then stop asking questions or nitpicking. the continuity is shaky a few times but over all the saga stands very well on all six legs. when i watched the movies for the first, second, third, twelfth, hundredth time i never saw half the problems bashers bring up, the answers seemed obvious. when i try to share my point of view, i get accused of being apologetic. i dont see it as 'excusing the inconsitencies,' but rather as 'explaining the consitancy'. like midichlorinas, for example. i dont have a problem, some people do, either we discuss our observations, or we dont. there are no excuses or accusations involved; only opinions. and if no one is to sick of this thread, i have some more to say about midis...

[Richard]

"and this is what draws the gushers out into the open and exposes them for what they are...

If the PTs were any good, people would not have to make excuses for the writer."

im sick of bashers saying this. i dont make excuses, im trying to tell you the way i understood the story. if you dont want an explanation then stop asking questions or nitpicking. the continuity is shaky a few times but over all the saga stands very well on all six legs. when i watched the movies for the first, second, third, twelfth, hundredth time i never saw half the problems bashers bring up, the answers seemed obvious. when i try to share my point of view, i get accused of being apologetic. i dont see it as 'excusing the inconsitencies,' but rather as 'explaining the consitancy'. like midichlorinas, for example. i dont have a problem, some people do, either we discuss our observations, or we dont. there are no excuses or accusations involved; only opinions. and if no one is to sick of this thread, i have some more to say about midis...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it's cool to speculate over stuff that isn't clear in a movie, or given suggestions about how two things correlate which might otherwise seem unconnected. And I think a lot of the time that's what people do on this board and I like it.

Now and again, I read things and it seems like they really just want to defend Star Wars regardless of how unlikely and illogical what they're saying is, and they are stating it all as if it is fact, like they're right definitely, and that's silly.

I think some people find it hard to make the distinction between what people are saying, and then they angry over someone who is just trying to give their opinion, like you said. I don't think that all explanations of the prequels are excuses, people should realise that

[xenduck]

ya, there are always people on both sides of a debate who are illogical, hot-tempered and WAY too serious. these movies are all about entertainment and imagination; thats what im here for. i rather enjoy taking 'indeffenseable' postions in (hypothetical) arguments. many times i have felt the prequals defy explanation, but the more i try to understand them (coincidently) the more they seem to make perfect sense. in every situation i am always looking for the not-so-obvious answers, and the fact that i keep finding them makes star wars seem all the more ingenious. at any rate, if i am illogical, no one can convince me of it...thats the bueaty of insanity!

[xenduck]

if i can be permitted yet another post on a long-forgotten thread, id just like to add a few more observations.

despite my best efforts i dont see any contextualy inconstencies with midichlorians. they dont contradict anything we KNOW of from the movies and they answer collectively a series of obscure questions from the OT. so the main complaint, and only reasonable, complaint ive heard/read is that midichlorians are pointless and thus indicative of poor story-telling. but thats not how i see it. indeed, midichlorians are of very little relevance to the main plot, which is preciesly why we know so little about them and they take only a small amount of screen time. midis are to jedi what the sun is to superman, or what dilthium crystals are to warpdrives. they are just a shadow of an explanation, they add depth to the concept without muddling it with details.

they act as a medium between life and the force. mush like zeus was forced to take on various shapes to conive in the mortal world. the product of his intermingling was hercules (along with a whole host of other demi-gods). the concept of virgin birth (or devine conception) is a wide-spread myth, but most myths still rely on a physical object. like the native american myth of Raven transforming into a splinter so as to be swollowed by a woman.

further, i know i have brought up plato's republic in other threads, and while a know his republic and lucas' are vastly different, you will notice that plato's concept of the 'gaurdians' is almost identical with the jedi. they are born communaly (without a family) they are special trained to perserve order, and are allowed special advantages. but more than that, they are told from birth that everyone is endowed by the earth with one of three elements (gold, silver, and i think, bronze). the gaurdians, being imbued with gold, have a right to rule over the 'lesser' citizens. the important diffrence here is that the element myth was a just a myth, but the midichlorians are real and offer proof of a jedi's 'higher calling' to protect and serve society.

the way i see it, those who loath midis are welcome to recognise their impotence in the story, while those who seek depth can have their way as well.

and one more thing, timothy zahn's trilogy has clones with jedi powers, without explaining why the powers can be clonned, yet no one seemed to care...why? i cant explain why the force needs midichlorians, however, at least i can explain why the force can be reproduced in clones and offspring.

[barend]

for what your definition of midicholirians would be...

i think i can finnally expalian to you where the problem lies.

MCs are to SW and the force... what someone annoyingly counting 1,2,3,4 over and over, would be to a song. MCs as something he did not want to explore should have remained secret then.

i'm writing a book, and there are a lot of things i have written and structered as systems in place that affect things, that will never be mentioned. i use them for continuity, if i explain it it robs the story of mystique.

[Supes]

and one more thing, timothy zahn's trilogy has clones with jedi powers, without explaining why the powers can be clonned, yet no one seemed to care...why? i  cant explain why the force needs midichlorians, however, at least i can explain why the force can be reproduced in clones and offspring.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And there is also another novel or comic that has a clone (Dorsk 51 is the character's name I think) who "develop's Jedi powers. This completely contradicts the concept of the midis. as you have outlined in the above example. All his previous clones should also have been force users because they would all have the same midi content. However, the story specifically identifies that post and preceding clones of the "Dorsk" being do not have this ability.

Additionally, the characters in the post Jedi novels develop the ability to determine a potentials power by a mind link of some sort and hitting an aspect of their brain. My apoogies that I cannot name the specific books or give a more detailed account of the acftions, but it's been a very long time and they all blur.

The crux of my point is that we really should stay out of the EU as Lucas himself has stated that the movies are canon and only the movies. If you want to explain the relevance of an aspect of the films then stay in the films as the EU will only provide an abundance of contradictions to add to both sides of the arguement as we can see above.

[Renegade]

midichlorians actually make sense and actually are a more logical explanation of the force, but in the context of the OT and the mystique already given to the force, they don't work.