[darthsmash]

The midis are as irrelevant to any conflict between the light and dark side and its practitioners as the phone lines/cable/satellite that allow me to communicate with you now are irrelevant to our disagreement over the value of midichlorians.


yes... they are.

THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well there was a context to that particular argument that was a little different to the whole "are midis necessary or useful in the SW story?" that I believe you are addressing here. This discussion was more along the lines of "How does the jedi<->midi<->force relationship work?". The other question has definitely been addressed though, somewhere further back in this 10 page thread.
EDIT 11 page thread EDIT

This post has been edited by darthsmash: 12 May 2005 - 04:34 AM

[darthsmash]

You aren't a stupid man, Darthsmash... you're actually quite a smart person, and I'd say I would probably like to meet you in real life.
Some of your points up there aren't the strongest ones around, and you were good enough to admit it, but what you're saying is, overall, quite good.

Thankyou for the kind words and I would like to reiterate that you yourself and other posters have raised good questions and objections and I've done my best to give what I thought could be answers to them when I felt that I could. And in doing so I have had to consider that crazy little thing in that galaxy a long way away that we call the force in a lot more depth than I ever have before. Which when you think about it really is an absolutely massive waste of time. But it beats reality TV.

Nevertheless, I do not support midichlorians, and can raise quite a few arguments from that position. You seem to support them, and have raised arguments for your position.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree - but I'm glad this topic has had good points raised on both sides and I'm happy to let it go.

I agree. To agree to disagree that is. And hopefully in doing so we can restore balance to these message boards.

And after that little series of posts, with no stupid bashing and the sportsmanship to realise that there are weak points on both sides too, I think you just earned your ChefElf.com stripes, Lord Smash, in my opinion at least. It was fun arguing with you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I humbly accept those stripes and pledge to honour and protect the ChefElf.com site, with my life if necessary. Or in all likelihood with a great deal of time that I should have spent doing work. Its been fun.


I leave you all with a quote from ole Doc Flannel himself I found today in the Vanity Fair article
on ROTS. Its GL talking about "mitichlorians" in relation to the Virgin Birth, the Force and mitochondria.

"It was a virgin birth in an ecosystem of symbiotic relationships. It means that between the Force, which is sort of a life force, and reality, the connectors between these two things are what we call mitichlorians. They're kind of based on mitochondria, which are a completely different species, a different animal, that live inside every single cell and allow it to live, allow it to reproduce, allow life to exist. They also, in their own way, communicate with the Force itself. The more you have, the more your cells are able to speak intuitively to the Force itself and use the powers of the Force. Ultimately, I would say the Force itself created Anakin. I don't want to get into specific terms of labeling things to make it one religion or another, but, basically, that's one of the foundations of the hero's journey."

Now to show you all that I am as Fair and Balanced as Rupert Murdoch himself, I will say that the explanation given by Lucas for some of the SW saga and ROTS in this article does open up holes in the midichlorian explanation, particularly relating to the mass of a person and there "midichlorian power" vs a cell count measure as per TPM. "Judge me by my size do you?" Yep it looks like we do old chum. So this is between you and Lucas now yeah? I fold. Not gonna write any more. I mean it.
ok.
bye now.

This post has been edited by darthsmash: 12 May 2005 - 04:52 AM

[xenduck]

how does size effect power? i dont see what the problem is here. how do midichlorians feature in a size issue? chewie was bigger than vader, jabba was bigger than chewie, yet they werent jedi at all. are you saying that bigger people must have more midichlorians? if so, thats ridiculous! its not how many cells you have, but how many midichlorians are in each cell. and midichlorians dont dictate how strong you will be, they only establish a base of potential. to use my old metaphor, a three-handed pianist would have an edge, but thats not all that matters. you can be born with three hands but you cannot be born knowing how to play the piano. please explain the relationship of midis, size, and power as you see it.

[The Other]

how does size effect power? i dont see what the problem is here. how do midichlorians feature in a size issue?

The bigger you are the more cells you have and the more cells you have the more midis you have and supposedly the more midis you have the more powerful you are.

[xenduck]

"The bigger you are the more cells you have and the more cells you have the more midis you have and supposedly the more midis you have the more powerful you are. "

did i not address that issue by saying, "are you saying that bigger people must have more midichlorians? if so, thats ridiculous! its not how many cells you have, but how many midichlorians are in each cell."?

midichlorians are more-or-less concentrated in your cells. there is no apperent set limit on how many midis may be in a cell. so you can have fewer cells yet more midis.

[barend]

Well there was a context to that particular argument that was a little different to the whole "are midis necessary or useful in the SW story?" that I believe you are addressing here. This discussion was more along the lines of "How does the  jedi<->midi<->force relationship work?". The other question has definitely been addressed though, somewhere further back in this 10 page thread.
EDIT 11 page thread    EDIT

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was just taking a cheap shot... i thought you'd find it funny.

but it does come back to the original point. if the nature of their relationship is so shallow there was no real point in mentioning them at all.

my main argument has been that they are a weak explanation that for something that required none.

[darthsmash]

I was just taking a cheap shot... i thought you'd find it funny.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, its all good. Had written so many dry, legalistic posts on the ins and outs of these fictional little buggers that I think my sense of humour may have gotten bored and gone off to do something else for a little while.
hh

[darthsmash]

"The bigger you are the more cells you have and the more cells you have the more midis you have and supposedly the more midis you have the more powerful you are. "

did i not address that issue by saying, "are you saying that bigger people must have more midichlorians? if so, thats ridiculous! its not how many cells you have, but how many midichlorians are in each cell."?

midichlorians are more-or-less concentrated in your cells. there is no apperent set limit on how many midis may be in a cell. so you can have fewer cells yet more midis.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK but as I understand it........

SPOILERS for ROTS
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Anakin/Vader is supposed to lose much of his power by the time he is suited because of the injuries he sustains and the body mass he has lost. I have tried to remain relatively spoiler free but I am assuming this is because of a loss of sheer midichlorian mass and not because he now sets off metal detectors all over the death star. The movie/novel may explain it differently and others here probably know better but as Lucas says in that Vanity Fair interview linked to above:
"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful," he says. "But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there's not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn't what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side."
The correlation between "as a living form, there's not that much of him left" and "a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point" seems to be only based on the fact that his lost a lot of midi-mass. He should still have the same lidi cell count so why is his ability to use the force impaired by his injuries? Whatever. Its just one of those things like Lucas saying "Well the reasons the duels from the OT were so slow and borderline incompetent was because we were seeing old men, cyborgs and half trained boys fighting whereas the prequels show the Jedi in their prime. So who are the best duellists in the PT. Spring chickens like Count Dooku, Yoda, Darth Sidious and a character with no force abilities who nevertheless becomes one of the most fearsome Jedi killers of the Clone Wars because of the advantage of his crazy cybernetic body.
Obviously GL's explanation doesn't add up. But I don't let it bother me so much.

[barend]

"judge me not by me size?"
-Yoda, ESB.

"judge me not by me size?"
-Yoda, ESB.

"judge me not by me size?"
-Yoda, ESB.

"judge me not by me size?"
-Yoda, ESB.

"judge me not by me size?"
-Yoda, ESB.

"judge me not by me size?"
-Yoda, ESB.

"judge me not by me size?"
-Yoda, ESB.

[xenduck]

barend, i dont think thats an accurate quote...

darthsmash, i wrote as my first post in this thread why i think anakin lost much of his power when he became vader. but that's an excellent point about yoda, dooku, and sidious being the best around yet quite old... meditate on this, i will.

[JW Wells]

From the ESB script:

YODA: Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hm?
Mmmm.

           Luke shakes his head.

YODA: And well you should not. For my ally is the Force. And a
powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. It's energy
surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we...(Yoda pinches
Luke's shoulder)...not this crude matter. (a sweeping gesture) You must
feel the Force around you. (gesturing) Here, between you...me...the
tree...the rock...everywhere! Yes, even between this land and that
ship!

Earlier in the script:

LUKE: Master, moving stones around is one thing. This is totally
different.

YODA: No! No different! Only different in your mind. You must unlearn
what you have learned.

Presented as a public service.

This post has been edited by JW Wells: 13 May 2005 - 04:48 PM

[xenduck]

yes, truly words of wisdom, and as true now as ever they were.

[barend]

"You must feel the Force around you. (gesturing) Here, between you...me...the tree...the rock...everywhere! "

how many midichlorians in the rock?

how many? MC fans?!?!

[xenduck]

you must have eyes to percieve light, just as you must have midichlorians to percieve the force. you must also have a will to interact with the force. since the rock (pressumably) has niether perception nor will, then the question of its midichlorian count is entirely irrelevent. i cant tell you how many, it could be zero or a billion, what difference does it make? barend, wether your question is practical or rhetorical i dont see its purpose.

i like to compare the force to space-time, in that, no matter where/when you are, you are in it and a part of it. yoda is trying to tell luke that he need not lift his hand to touch the rock becuase they are both a part of the force, they are already touching. luke can percieve the force, he has a strong will to direct the force, the rock has niether. therefore, it is luke who moves the rock rather than the rock moving him. though one could ask, did luke, in fact, move the rock, or did the rock move the universe?

[Despondent]

No, he meant "between" as in "between." String the force between you and the rock, tug on the force between you and the rock, move the rock. And I don't even know how I'm going to get off this rock. The force pulled Luke off just as it pulled Annie onto the trade fed ship. "Ooops. It wasn't me- it was the Midichloriwans HONest."