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i dont know where you get your delusions... midichlorains made easy!!!

#136 User is offline   darthsmash Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 04:47 AM

QUOTE (DarthTherion @ May 11 2005, 04:47 PM)
Bingo! The real problem here is that people have a hard time equating spirituality with matter. That's because our culture embraces Western religions that are cut off from nature. Not so with Eastern religions. Not so with the Force, which binds all things together.

Here's an analogy: I love my girlfriend, I really do. But if you told me that my "love" was really a bunch of hormones floating around in my bloodstr--

--oh, wait a minute. Love *is* a product of hormones, isn't it? Does that make my love any less real?


Good point. A lot of people feel that something that was once mysterious and seemingly transcendant is cheapened when it can be explained in scientific terms. A feeling that seems to pop up in a few of these posts. As a scientist I disagree, (the great physicist Roger Feynman argued eloquently that the understanding that science gives us into something as beautiful as a flower actually made it more beautiful and profound for him) but I can understand others disliking miichlorians for this reason.
hh
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#137 User is offline   darthsmash Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 04:57 AM

QUOTE (Mnesymone @ May 9 2005, 02:23 PM)
"and might provide an explanation as to why Jedi are not allowed to procreate "

Where in hell did you get that idea from?
Are they MONKS!!! Firstly its exceedingly poor form to make the heroes of any story celibate - also it was never stated, so my question as to where the hell you got it from still stands...


Pretty sure he got it from AOTC where it was more or less explicitly stated by Anakin and Padme. Forbidden love and all that. I suppose there could be Jedi "breeding camps" where the Jedi mated with people they had no significant attachment to for the purposes of procreation but thats a little....weird.

QUOTE
if they are supposed to be celibate, then it adds an unnecessary degree of melodrama to Anakin and Padme... I'm sorry, this is a bit of a rant, but the Jedi were not supposed to be celibate... even according to Lucas's original vision - his oldest concepts for the Jedi was that in olden times, Jedi would train their children and their children alone in the ways of the Force. Children = not celibate.


To quote somebody elses sig.

"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197)

Lucas's original vision for SW was something pretty different to what we got back in 77 and different again to what we are getting now. As for the space hobbit idea I'm pretty glad he changed his mind.
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#138 User is offline   darthsmash Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 05:13 AM

QUOTE (CowboyCurtis @ May 9 2005, 02:27 PM)
There's another aspect to all of this, and it's the statement, "May the Force be with you."  I know many have brushed this aside as a greeting, or just saying "good luck," but it had to come from somewhere, and aspects of it are definitely used in the OT:  "...the Force is strong with this one..."  "Kenobi is here... and the Force is with him."

Again, what is the point of midichlorians when the Force "decides" to be with whomever, no matter whether they have lots of midi's or not!  What would be the point of saying, "may the Force be with you," when you don't even have enough midi's to so the Force may actually be with you?


The force can be with anyone. Not the same as being able to tell if the force is with you when you buy a lottery ticket or being able to manipulate physical matter with the force such that your numbers actually come up. Such things are in the realm of the Jedi.

The force has a will of its own as I see it, the difference with a Jedi or somebody being possessed of high midichlorians is that they can sense that will, glimpse the future, and in certain circumstances bend the force to their own will, be it for good or evil.

Saying "May the force be with you",as I see it is essntially the same as saying "May God's grace be with you", 'May fortune shine upon you" "May the Gods keep you safe" etc but in a far cooler way. smile.gif

QUOTE
In finish... OBVIOUSLY, we will not be convinced that midi's were essential to the plot, and OBVIOUSLY you will not be convinced that they weren't.


Well I don't think they were essential to the plot and I don't think many would argue that the PT could have gotten by without them. My main points of contention are that I think some of the arguments expressed as to why midichlorians suck or what have you are not particularly good and are inconsistent with an acceptance of other aspects of the saga. Also I believe that they do actually contribute something of worth to the saga.
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#139 User is offline   darthsmash Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 05:31 AM

QUOTE (CowboyCurtis @ May 8 2005, 02:32 PM)
But this is the other aspect of the midichlorians "guiding" people that is total bunk----because Anakin DOESN'T listen to his midichlorians, he switches to the darkside?  And if the midichlorians are trying to guide him to the good side, and if they're so wise and stuff, why can't they just shut off the Force power from Anakin to prevent him from using the darkside, and so that their will is imposed over his?


OK. Nowhere is it stated that the midichlorians possess any intelligence or any will of their own. The way I see things you are confusing the Force itself in all its mystical energy field glory, with the physical factor that somehow gives sentient beings the ability to sense and manipulate that energy field. The force may will things, the force may want everything to turn out for the best but midichlorians themselves don't want anything. If the force is like some powerful deity then the midichlorians might be like a personal hotline between you and him. You hear a voice coming out of the phone but that doesn't mean the phone itself is particularly intelligent.

QUOTE (Mnesymone)
Incidentally, Anakin was also, Qui-Gon believed, supposed to have been conceived by midichlorians.
So my question is: HOW IN HELL DID THAT HAPPEN?


Well when a midichlorian likes a girl..... wub.gif
Seriously though I'm not going to provide any detailed mechanism whereby I believe such a thing could occur, however I will address the percieved point that this makes the midichlorians seem to be doing something of their own accord. And the simple answer for me is that it was the will of the force that Anakin be concieved, and the two way influence between the force and the midichlorians allowed this to occur. ie the force willed it and the midichlorians responded. I don't think I can get much more out of it than that. There is a lot not to know about the precise relationships between midichlorians, the force and the existance and creation of life but I don't think think really contradicts the theory I argued above.
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#140 User is offline   darthsmash Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 05:55 AM

QUOTE (Mnesymone @ May 4 2005, 02:28 PM)
From Qui-Gons speech in Menace he didn't mention the force at all - he didn't say that they create the Force or are a medium to the Force - he says that the midichlorians themselves seem to 'speak' - providing guidance and knowledge to those who quiet themselves enough to hear them, and that all life has them and that life could not have arisen without them...


Don't know the speech off my head but will assume this is all true.

QUOTE
If the midichlorians provide guidance and not power, how come Anakin, who is supposed to have the highest midichlorian count of all, is so misguided and powerful?


Good question. Probably one of the best so far. My take is that it is PT canon that the midis are what let a Jedi sense the will of the force. Whether they also directly effect his ability to manipulate the force is not explicitly confirmed. If they do then that is why Anakin is so powerful and Qui-Gon simply didn't mention it to the little tyke. If not, if midis only allow you to download from the forcenet and not upload (analogy becoming increasingly lame) so to speak then it is possible that all conscious beings could develop force powers in theory but in practice they cannot because they can never sense the force and/or how they are influencing it with their mind/thoughts/whatever. If one can sense the force then one can conceivably sense ones own presence in and contribution to the force (it binds all things, even Jar-Jar) and can begin to change, subtly at first the way one influences the force until at an advanced stage the manipulation of physical objects, mind tricks and all kinds of crazy shit is possible. The less able to percieve the force however the more difficult and time-consuming such a process might be. To a "force-blind" person the force might be a game of Tetris being played with the screen off (analogy at maximum lameness wacko.gif ). They can fiddle with the controls but are not really aware of what effect this is having on the force/game and the effect of there efforts will be essentially random and insignificant. In fact they won't even know there is a game of Tetris to be played. The midimaster on the other hand can see the game with some degree of clarity (maybe the pieces move slower the more midis you have!) and can become Dark Lord of the Tetris, and rule the galaxy.
I think the first explanation is simpler and better but the second one kinda works for me as well.
Now as to why he is so misguided. A number of explanations are possible. Anakin's emotions are even stronger than his sense of the force in determining his actions. If you mean morally miguided then the force doesn't give any real moral guidance - a Jedi may sense great power in the dark side and that may be enough to sway his actions, he may sense there disasterous consequences for many of those around him but not particularly care. He may even sense long term repercussions from those actions that will prove unpleasant even to him but be unable to resist. In short he may be able to see whats coming in a lot of situations, know what cards are about to be dealt, that doesn't mean he will act wisely (the overconfidence accompanying such ability may lead to gross errors of judgement) and certainly doesn't mean he will use that knowledge in a moral fashion.
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#141 User is offline   darthsmash Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 06:36 AM

QUOTE (barend @ May 4 2005, 11:55 AM)
alright... I'll try and make this as clear as possible, for darthsmash you argue well... and i have anjoyed debating this with you. (really, you are good at this).


Thankyou. I have also enjoyed these debates if found them a little distracting. Hell with all the energy and thought being poured into this thread we should turn it all into a book -
"Midichlorians - Shit or Not?". I'd buy it... smile.gif

QUOTE
but...

the second you introduce an scientific element to a fantasy idea, you suddenly impose upon it restrictions.

the problem here, with science fiction concepts is that they require a realistic set of limmitations.

saying that these single cell lifeforms or micr-organisms can communicate a disturbance accross space is a bit much.

Obi wan sensed "a disturbance in the force" from across the vacuum of space. the midiCs were all vapourised as were the hosts of whom were by definition of symbiosis were the only things keeping them alive... They were in NO way in a possition to communicate long distance signals accross the fathoms of the vacuum of space.

"It was if thousands of voices cried out and silenced"

bearing in mind that the shot fired at them destroyed the planet, no one would have had the time to really feel a thing.


OK thats a good one. I will concede that there should not have been any time for a signal of "OMG I'm DYING!!!" to form in any Alderaanians brain let alone be picked up by the midis and transmitted across space.
However I have a couple of scenarios which may explain it.
1) Cheapest one first: Obi-Wan was speaking poetically. Thousands of voices "crying out and being silenced" was a simile he was using after all to convey to a room full of non-Jedi what he was experiencing. What he may have sensed was instead a very concentrated midi/sentient cluster (go with me here) that he was always dimly aware of in that "connected to everything" way suddenly disappear. Part of the web that binds us suddenly had a big hole in it. In effect what he should have said was "It was if thousands of voices were suddenly silenced".
2) What Obi sensed was the post annihilation reaction of this planet of dudes suddenly becoming one with the force. With their midis annihilated along with their bodies there was no longer any need for the midis to establish a link to the force - a dead human/sentient is a disembodied consciousness in the SW universe and hence is "made one with the force". At the instant that this happened, after they realised they were all dead, the Alderaanians registered there extreme shock and displeasure in the force and then quickly settled down. ermm.gif
3) As you point out the megadeath of Alderaan happened too quickly for any Alderaniaan to realise what was happening before annihilation. This poses problems for Obi-Wans "voices cried out and were silenced" statement even if you have a no midi version of the force. Presumably the crying out was a kind of pre-death "Aaaargh!" and the sudden silence was the "force scream" being ended by death. Still doesn't make any sense. Unless you go for one of the first two explanations (or your own better one). At any rate it is not really a problem for midis as their absence does not make the inconsistency in Kenobi's statement any less inconsistent. Still its a cool line.

QUOTE
so, when you really look at it rationally, what ben felt was really spiritual. As the force was (as lucas himself confessed in at the time of the OT) based on eastern religion and mysticism.

arguments can be put forward on the fine points and details for and against quite equally, but ultimatley the question comes down to this.

scientifically rationalizing (adequatley or the way lucas does it) a spiritual idea that serves as the backbone for characters' motivation, is reckless and self defeating.

wars were fought because the little things living in my blood didn't like the little things living in your blood. I mean that IS what MCs would have us ultimatley beleive the essential difference between LS and DS is.


No not at all by my way of thinking. The force, light or dark, is quite separate from the midis. The midis are as irrelevant to any conflict between the light and dark side and its practitioners as the phone lines/cable/satellite that allow me to communicate with you now are irrelevant to our disagreement over the value of midichlorians. Now join me in the Dark Side. You don't know its explanatory power!!! devil.gif

QUOTE
it's just not appropriate.

the concept DOES limmit the general scope of what the force is, and put's it out of place. like saying God Told Joan of Arc to fight the English using an 'Orion to Soul' Nokia 344, Metaphysical Prayer Answering modulator.

it spoils the mood... next time you ask a girl out, make your opening statement, "Hi, I don't know you, but if you're no busy later, i'd like to penetrate your vagina"
It's what george would do tongue.gif


Well I'll give it a shot but to be honest I'm not real good with all that romantic-type talk. I usually just go with something simple and reliable like -
"I don’t like sand. It’s coarse and rough and irritating, and it gets everywhere. Not like here. Here everything’s soft... and smooth..." biggrin.gif
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#142 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 06:54 AM

You aren't a stupid man, Darthsmash... you're actually quite a smart person, and I'd say I would probably like to meet you in real life.
Some of your points up there aren't the strongest ones around, and you were good enough to admit it, but what you're saying is, overall, quite good.
Nevertheless, I do not support midichlorians, and can raise quite a few arguments from that position. You seem to support them, and have raised arguments for your position.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree - but I'm glad this topic has had good points raised on both sides and I'm happy to let it go.

And after that little series of posts, with no stupid bashing and the sportsmanship to realise that there are weak points on both sides too, I think you just earned your ChefElf.com stripes, Lord Smash, in my opinion at least. It was fun arguing with you.
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#143 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 07:59 AM

I had an answer, but reading back through, a lot of them are already covered, so I'm not going to repeat what I or many others have stated... I'm going to put it point-blank like this (and this has been said multiple times)

If you need to put up THIS MUCH EXPLANATION for one concept in the Star Wars movies----then it should never been in the films unless it was explained a lot more clearly---in the films---not by a book---not by fans---not by any extraneous material!!! IN THE FILMS!!! And if it takes too much time to explain---CUT IT!!!!

Midichlorians needed to be cut in a big way.

Nothing you gushies have said have changed my mind, it only shows that you're willing to bend your logic into pretzels to prove your point and that a concept that really didn't need this mechanism and explanation---something which was readily accepted from the first film needed no changes---no addendums.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

This post has been edited by CowboyCurtis: 11 May 2005 - 08:04 AM

Flying Ferret

Battle for the Galaxy--read the "other Star Wars"

All I know is I haven't seen the real prequels yet.
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#144 User is offline   JW Wells Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 09:37 AM

QUOTE (darthsmash @ May 11 2005, 04:30 AM)
But the OT mixed the mystical (The Force) with the material (a body of flesh and blood). All religions or philosophies that believe in a non-physical reality such as the soul which somehow interacts with a physical being (body and more importantly brain) face this dilemma.


The problem with positing a microorganism that squares this particular circle is that it raises all kinds of other questions. How do these microorganisms live in the blood of all kinds of different species which produce Jedi? How precisely do these microorganisms "use the Force"? Do all living things have midichlorians? Even living things without a bloodstream? Can midichlorians be mass-grown and injected into the blood? Why or why not?

The kicker is that the Star Wars series is not interested in any of these other questions. George Lucas is perfectly happy to invent midichlorians for a particular plot point (Annakin's force powers go to eleven!) or perhaps two (Annakin has no father!) and then leave them sit there, rather than make any attempt to integrate them into the rest of his narrative.

Add this to the fact that it seems to contradict some of the earlier references to the Force in the earlier movies - Ben's offer to teach Han about the Force, Yoda's statement that lifting an X-wing is really no harder than lifting a rock - and you have some sloppy storytelling. It's a microcosm of the problems with the PT, in that it takes a perfectly acceptable part of the series, invents a half-assed explanation for it, does not pursue that explanation, and leaves it sitting there like a dead fish.
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#145 User is offline   rangwe Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 10:25 AM

*Of course* the source of all psychic material is the non-psychic (we are the face of the earth). That isn't in debate here. How does science explain *consciousness* without resorting to pseudo-science (I.e., religious terminology)? There are two forces at work here, both of which are *real* and *legitimate*, but also existing on their own terms and by their own rules.

The OT Force: A psychic (as in, non-real, irrational) fact. That means you can put it in a bible and no one will be able to agree on whether the correct formula is contextual or literal. The Force is strong in those whose consciousness is strong (I.e., Luke, following his Bliss as the Hero is "on the track" of consciousness-raising, he is in accord with nature (See also, Life, the Universe, and Everything)).

The PT Force: A non-psychic (as in, real, rational) fact. That means you can put it in a science textbook and it can be exploited by anyone who knows "the system". The Force is strong in those whose blood stream is "pure enough" to accomodate a sizable colony. (I.e., Anakin is "born" with the Force and only needs to learn the Jedi "system" to use it, his personal choices don't matter at all in the equation (See also, Predestination and Denial of Basic Human Nature (Also, Concept of Freedom as the overall drive of Humanity)).

I think people recoil from the non-psychic explanation because it reeks of "the system" and "exploitation". All you have to do is find and develop the perfect strain of human beings and train them. The "Heroic Journey" is a carnival ride that you watch but don't participate in. Its a "possession by demonic forces" issue at its base - the machine taking you over that people instinctively recognize and reject.

Lucas was just looking for a rational way to justify "magic" in his world (oh how the irrationalities of life must vex him so!). But science can't easily explain the irrational. "Science does not remove the terror of the Gods." So "magic" always ends up turning into "technology". Fair enough, but it raises then the issues of "the machine" that Cambell talked about in his Bill Moyers interview. And its those issues that people feel wasn't given an honorable explanation.

Because if I were the Emperor, I'd have cloned Anakin and manufactured an army of Darth Vaders to do my bidding. With my comprehensive Super High Intensive Training program I'd have them all using the Force. The only problem would be manufacturing enough lightsabers for them all, but I'm sure as the unbeatable Emperor I'd be able to get around that somehow.

Ludicrous, isn't it? But that's just what a Midichlorine-based non-psychic fact allows you to do!

- rangwe
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#146 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 01:08 PM

what fun! a few notes; i do enjoy going round and round. if midichlorians mean there could be clone jedi, then no midichlorians means every single storm trooper could be trained in the jedi arts.

as far as gushers comming up with excuses: bashers are convaluting the story. we put effort in explaining why your problems arent problems for us. we didnt have to explain our point of view to ourselves.(well...somethings).

when music is written with pen and paper, is it less bueatiful? when realitivity is expressed with an equation, is it any less abstract? when the force speaks to us through midichlorians, is it less mystical? i think not. but thats just me.

"it spoils the mood... next time you ask a girl out, make your opening statement, "Hi, I don't know you, but if you're no busy later, i'd like to penetrate your vagina"
It's what george would do"

incidently, thats how i got my last TWO girlfriends!

This post has been edited by xenduck: 11 May 2005 - 01:09 PM

Officer! officer! quick! all my money was stolen by a man in flannel!
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#147 User is offline   rangwe Icon

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 01:48 PM

Absolutely correct. No midichlorines means every single stormtrooper *could* be trained in the jedi arts.

Midichlorines means every single stormtrooper *can* be trained in the jedi arts *if* they have the "Pure Blood" in them.

As soon as I see any arguments that convince me to let go of my anger and hatred, I'll be happy to redeem my soul for valuable cash and prizes! Keep trying, folks. Your enthusiasm is not your undoing.

As for me, I say to hell with the middle-man. I want my connection to The Divine Vagina to be a direct hook-up.

- rangwe
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#148 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 12:46 AM

QUOTE (darthsmash @ May 11 2005, 06:36 AM)
The midis are as irrelevant to any conflict between the light and dark side and its practitioners as the phone lines/cable/satellite that allow me to communicate with you now are irrelevant to our disagreement over the value of midichlorians.


yes... they are.

wacko.gif THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!!! wacko.gif

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#149 User is offline   Invisible Hand Icon

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 01:28 AM

Qui-gon's use of the machine to check Anakin's blood for a Midi count demonstrates the general Star Wars motif of nature vs. machine. The Jedi were trying to explain the Force through science, but Midi's are merely a small element of it all. The Midi counts never mattered in the end because all it took for Luke to win was his rejection of aggression, and his compassion for his Father. Force powers became irrelevent.

Think of where Yoda lives during the PT, Coruscant, center of technology, and then in the OT he has moved to a planet brimming with life, away from it all.

This is the whole reason for their diminishing use of the Force, and their subsequent downfall. They viewed themselves too scientifically, and lost the their connection with the Living Force. They were servents of the Republic not to the Force. But once Yoda experiences his failure in ROTS, he'll unlearn what he has learned, and become that mystical figure as seen in ESB.

This post has been edited by Invisible Hand: 12 May 2005 - 01:30 AM

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#150 User is offline   Mnesymone Icon

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 01:31 AM

Thats cool. And it works well enough to expain a lot of things.

But until I hear it from the flanneletted one, via a movie not some interview, I'm not buying.
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