[CowboyCurtis]

Well, you'll never convince me... and you've totally missed the point of the original films... and Lucas has forgotten.

Best of luck to ya'.

[StarWarsIsUs]

and may the medichlorians be with you.

[xenduck]

and what, according to you, is the point of the OT?

[Despondent]

This mystical force thing turns out to be a huge commercial success.

[Just another wretched fan]

Absolutely wrong, the OT explained everything, and midichlorians doesn't solve anything. By your definition Vader would have had to blood test luke to know he was a force user. He just sensed it from his fighter.

a. until the empire came along and tried to wipe out all evidence of jedi. anakin as a kid new about jedi and laserswords, but luke had never even heard of the force.

backwater world. empire DOESN'T CONTROL TATOOINE according your PT canon.

b. so that demonstrates the level of information control the empire had and that would be absolutly necessary to a dictatorship.

plus how could it get that much control in 20 years. i don't believe it

c. and if jedi can sense other jedi why didnt luke know yoda was a jedi?
luke wasn't a jedi yet. he was still learning. simple simple simple answers.

d. why couldnt vader find ben or yoda?

because, according your your PT canon. there needed to be a balance to the force. 2 jedi, 2 sith.

plus, common sense says that force sensitivity only works over short distances. unless its and entire world blowing up.

e. why didnt the emperor sense luke on endor?

apparently you have to be pretty close. Say...within the radius of the death star.

f. why didnt vader know leia was his daughter?

she was hidden from him at birth. he could have sensed that she was strong with the force, but didn't comment on it.

g. the force is strong with the skywalkers. fine. but that means, without a doubt, that the force descriminates between indiviuals; but on what grounds? midichlorians!!!

wrong.

[J m HofMarN]

You should check out this issue of SW Republic comic where a Jedi relays to his good friend ChancellorPalpatine the idea of his talented Padawan that the truth of Kenobi's report regarding the presence of a Sith in the Senate should be investigated by having all Senators submit a drop of blood for midichlorian testing. To help convince any sceptical Senators the Jedi suggests that his buddy use his tremendous influence by being the first to submit to the test. Palpatine says he doesn't quite follow it but it sounds lke a good idea and he'll get right on it as soon as the two Jedi return from their latest mission. Of course the next thing we see is a communication from Sidious to Dooku telling him to send overwhelming forces to one particular planet in order to ensure that a particular Jedii and his apprentice never leave the plan alive. Theres more but in short a great story that took the midichlorian idea and ran with it whilst also demonstrating the sheer bastardry of Palpatine to great effect. Even as he dies this poor fricking Jedi thinks the good Chancellor is his best friend.

DS- I don't usually say this about things put forth by prequelists but that sounds fuggin awesome! Why didn't we get this kind of diabolical backstabbing from Palps in the PT? This is a great plot line.

[darthsmash]

OK I said I was done here but I can't keep away.

midichlorains don't explain shit because they still don't say how a stupid cellular organism can defy the laws of physics. They are not a scientific explaination. they are vague and useless. period.

well in the OT midichlorian-free SW universe there is presumably a vague link between how a physical being such as a human can interact with a "mystical energy field". To say "luminous beings are we not this crude matter" ie. we are really spiritual matter or "souls" is to invite all the metaphysial problems that have plagued cartesian dualsim and basically made it a philosophically untenable position today. If these same metaphysical objections bother you when thinking about midichlorians then I'm sorry to say that they are no less of a problem for the midichlorian-free conception of the force. So its not a very consistent argument to object to one and not the other.

don't get what you are saying with the first two

fuck it i quit

if you don't understand our rebuttles than replying is just total waste of time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Um its not a case of not being able to understand "your" rebuttals but when someone says something as frankly vague and ambiguous as "How then are these things affecting each other? Obviously they are in control of who gets what, so how is it possible to control them." its a little tough to argue against. You haven't exactly addressed many for my points either except for more or less saying saying "midichlorians don't explain shit".

Even in the early preconcepts of ANH, there were no mentions, not even a vague, generalized intimation of "midiclorians" that would explain the Force, or used to recognize another Jedi---never!

As I have said many times before this doesn't mean it contradicts anything in the OT or that it is an inherently bad idea.


This was a last minute---pulled out of his ASS idea that Lucas put into the script.


If by last minute you mean "somewhere in the 15 or so years between ROTJ and TPM" then I guess it is.


Show me where in the PT's midichlorians have importance to the plot or story!! SHOW ME!!! Point to the spot!! PLEASE!!


I must have pointed where and why I believe they are important 5 times in this thread already. It shouldn't be that hard to find.

all that we know of jedi from the OT is that there was once more than two of them, they were hunted by vader and the emperor, they were the gaurdians of peace and justice in the old republic, and the majority of the galaxy seems to think the force is a hokie religion.

Yes, and they can only think of it that way if there wasn't scientific proof that people can have superpowers.

Look if physically moving things around using only the power of ones mind does not constitute "scientific proof that people can have superpowers" than nothing does. The fact that there existed a microorganism that could be quantitatively analysed and was believed by the Jedi to hold the key to sentient control/awareness over the force is going to make bugger all difference if the rather more sensational fact that there were a bunch of dudes running around with telekinesis and the power to control other peoples minds did not convince people the force was real.

And I've brought this up before, and I will again, but the statement, "may the Force be with you," would have no meaning with midichlorians. Shouldn't it be more like, "I hope you've got enough midi's to do that..."


Doesn't matter how many midichlorians you have if the fate/the force is dead set keen on the idea of you dying next week. The Jedi collectively had all the midichlorians in the world but the force obviously wasn't with them during "the dark times". The phrase "may the force be with you" is just as valid.

So many people don't believe in Jedi or the force in the OT. If the governement sponsored a group of people who had biological organisms in them that blatently allowed they to DEFY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS....they word would spread pretty far and wide and you wouldn't see comments like Han's "only luck" comment.


Same argument as above about the same people visibly defying the laws of physics.


So many scientific papers would be written on the midichlorians and how they allow the laws of physics to be defied. ...do you see what i'm saying?


In our world definitely. But in our world, based on the OT, everyone would be force using all the time once word got out about the Jedi (they were plainly no "secret society") and it would practically be part of the school curriculum. If everyone could use the force with equal ability according to their training/dedication then I would take the 6 or so months off that Luke does in his Jedi crash course to become that poweful. Are people really gonna be "Sure I'd love to have super powers. Who wouldn't? But this moisture doesn't just farm itself you know. and the Simpsons are on later so who has the time really?" Dictators and criminals would be force lightning policeman etc. But in the SW world things don't necessarily work that way.

e. why didnt the emperor sense luke on endor?

apparently you have to be pretty close. Say...within the radius of the death star.

"I have sensed his presence my lord"
"Curious that I have not."

f. Why didnt vader know leia was his daughter?

she was hidden from him at birth. he could have sensed that she was strong with the force, but didn't comment on it.

As argued before she was as strong in the force as Luke ("there is another") and we all know how important Luke was to the Emperor, Vader and the two remaining jedi ("The emperor knew as I did tht if Anakin was to have any children that they would be a threat to him"). Why say/do nothing about this if he can sense how powerful she is? And if he can't then Jedi would not be able to sese how powerful someone was with much degree of accuracy at all if any. (I gave my explanation for Vaders "the force is strong in this one" comment earlier in the thread) Therefore a midichlorian test or something like it might be a handy/necessary thing to find potential Jedi/establish how powerful a younfg Anakin skywalker is.

In short, IMO midichlorians provided
1 a convenient way to
get across how powerful/important Anakin skywalker was
2 an explanation for the heredability (strength within a blood line) of force potential and its tendency to be stronger in some inidividuals rather than others. (for arguments as to why this is the case see other posts of mine)
and as an added bonus they help explain how vader could not seem to sense the tremendous force-potential/importance of his daughter between bouts of conversation and torture.

DS- I don't usually say this about things put forth by prequelists but that sounds fuggin awesome! Why didn't we get this kind of diabolical backstabbing from Palps in the PT? This is a great plot line.

It was a very cool self-contained issue. All told in a Memnto style flashback sequence and made all the more impressive by the fact that it was apparently written because the editors said to the writer "We have this cover all done. Come up with a story that goes along with it." it also tells how Palpatine came to be the Senator from Naboo.
And you bring up a good point. One of the things I like about the PT has been that there has been a lot of really good EU stuff associated with it. Looking at questions like "How does a group of beings sworn to uphold peace react when they are forced to fight in a brutal war?" etc

[xenduck]

a.backwater world. empire DOESN'T CONTROL TATOOINE according your PT canon.

i didnt say they did, but information about the empire filters to the outskirts. info got to anakin but not to luke. cause the empire stopped information at its source.

plus how could it get that much control in 20 years. i don't believe it

even without the PT we have to assume a lot of changes have been made in the galaxy since the empire took control. the OT doesnt say how long the empire had been in power but i think we all agree it couldnt have been more than 50yrs. did you ever read 1984?


luke wasn't a jedi yet. he was still learning. simple simple simple answers.
i considered this, but i have another theory below....

because, according your your PT canon. there needed to be a balance to the force. 2 jedi, 2 sith.

well that may or may not be true, however, it doesnt answer my question in the least. are you saying vader and the emperor didnt WANT to find ben or yoda? this is a question left completly unaddressed by your OT canon.

plus, common sense says that force sensitivity only works over short distances. unless its and entire world blowing up.

oh i see, size matters not, but distance is all important? yoda watched luke for a long time on tattooine from degobah, how does that work then?

she was hidden from him at birth. he could have sensed that she was strong with the force, but didn't comment on it.

but yet he felt the need to comment on luke? and when he found out luke had a twin, he never seemed to realize who it was, is he dim? plus, vader could sense luke on endor, so why not the emperor? and vader could talk to luke from bespin while he was flying away in the millenium falcon; i think thats bigger area than the DS.

wrong.

uh, care to explain, for us with un-common sense?

and heres my theory about ben and vader on the DS. and before anyone suggests it, i got this impression immidiatly, before dreaming of a PT. force-wielders can sense people around them, anyone. vader recognises motti as motti, tarkin as tarkin, leia as leia and obi-wan as obi-wan. not because they have force powers, but becuase force powers give you extrasensory perception. just like luke knew he was being watched, but didnt know it was a jedi. which explains why vader couldnt recognise force abilities in leia. i figure, if vader concentrated hard enough, he could sense anyone anywhere. same with all the jedi if they know who they're looking for. afterall, vader was able to find luke on hoth. maul was able to track gui-gon, though with help. but im still wondering why ben and yoda were never found, i can only assume they know some jedi trick, but then, how did vader sense ben? ben wanted him to, vader says himself that "escape is not his plan." simple, simple, simple. back to you.

and id like to add, for what its worth, my praise for darthsmash. i dont wanna seem like im ganging-up to beat others over the head or anything, but how is it, if were pulling this outta our arses, he(pressuming) and i (as i see it)have the same ideas about midichlorians? the same questions left-over from the OT?

This post has been edited by xenduck: 30 April 2005 - 12:34 AM

[xenduck]

and a few more things, looking at just the OT, if jedi can sense other force wielders, then why did the jedi let palpatine seize power, knowing he had forcepowers but presumably was never a jedi? the simplest answer i can come up with is that the jedi cant sense who is and who is not a force adept. remember there was no mention of the darkside 'clouding everything' in the OT. i then have to assume it is a discrepancy for vader to know the force is strong with luke in ANH. unless maybe its a skywalker thing. the only other answer is that yoda, obi-wan and palpatine all know a trick to hide their powers. in which case, wouldnt that have been helpful to luke on endor. or wouldnt luke's power 'signal' have lead the empire to degobah in ESB? wouldnt vader or the emperor also have sensed leia on endor?

[Mnesymone]

The Force of the OT is not a precise instrument.
Palpatine sense a disturbance in the Force - perhaps, if not likely caused by Luke drawing on the force to escape the wampa.
Vader senses the force with Luke in the trench.
Yoda and Ben were not sensed by Vader and the Emperor - perhaps because the Jedi training allows them to calm 'disturbances' in the Force so as to hide their presence.
It seems that the Force is everywhere, and that it ripples and tremors at the presence and actions of the force-wielders, Jedi and Sith.
If midichlorians are dismissed - Palpatine might have sufficient training in the Force from the Sith to calm the tremors he causes and mask his presence.
As for Vader sensing Luke and not Palpatine - it shows not any weakness of the force, but the ebb and flow of one's mastery of it.
As for Vader not sensing the Force in Leia, the character of Leia only became Luke's sister in the scripting for Return of the Jedi.
When A New Hope was being scripted, in fact, during the pre-production of the movie, the character who is now Luke Skywalker was still a woman - even after Luke was scripted as a man, it is unlikely that they were supposed to be brother and sister - the shot that someone found, its in either this forum or the Star Wars journal sub-forum, of Luke and Leia about to either eat each other or make out in Empires pretty clear.

[StarWarsIsUs]

Well said symone.

[Mnesymone]

"g. the force is strong with the skywalkers. fine. but that means, without a doubt, that the force descriminates between indiviuals; but on what grounds? midichlorians!!!

wrong. "

All right so he didn't exactly have a verbose rebuttal - but remember, Ben didn't say anything of the Force being strong with Luke...
In fact, from everything up to Return of the Jedi, there was nothing to say that the Force was a family trait, or even that any untrained person was strong in it.
From A New Hope we can gather that when someone reaches out to the Force, knowing what it is and that it is there, with a quiet mind and lets it flow through them, they become strong in the Force.
When they do not do so, the Force is with them, but they do not wield it, and so it is latent, hidden.
The Jedi training allows someone to become strong in the Force, and given enough training - to become a Jedi, to cross some threshold that allows them not just to wield it, but to master it. It is not brought about by genetics or midichlorians, but by patience and diligence and strength of spirit. The Force does not discriminate between individuals, it is the individuals beliefs, whether open or closed, towards the Force that make it appear so.
As for midichlorians explaining the Force strength in Anakin - Qui-Gon could have simply said "the Force is uncommonly strong in the boy" during the pod race.

[xenduck]

so, what im getting from these 'answers' is that either you dont accept midichlorains and none of the movies fit together, or you do accept midichlorians and all five do fit.

and no one ever said that patience and diligence werent part of wielding the force. so stop saying anyone said it. you still need the deepest comitment and the most serious mind, otherwise the midichlorians are all but useless to a jedi or a sith or anyone.

[xenduck]

i agree with you completely about the force being laten when not in use, and probably only sense'able' when called upon. however, it is the same to assume jedi have a trick to hide themselves as it is to assume they simply cant sense who has jedi powers. i say freely that all my questions can be answered by various (and often contradictory) explanations, but doesnt the idea of midichlorians answer all of them in a practical, plausible, way? midichlorians dont detract from the mystical or philosophical aspects of the force. the only ability anakin was granted by his unpresedented midichlorians was quick reflexes. the rest, as gui-gon says, will come with time and training. and i do not believe it was anakin's high count that intriuged qui-gon, (he and obi-wan admit to not knowing what it means)but rather by his immaculate conception(which is a whole other can o worms.)

as for skywalkers not being special, then explain how vader, though a practitioner of the weaker side, was able to deffeat all the other jedi? explain why the emperor needed vader. these questions come from just ANH, and are never answered throughout. and if the darkside isnt weaker then yoda and ben are delusional and it shouldnt have taken a thousand generations for the darkside to come out on top.

[Despondent]

as for skywalkers not being special, then explain how vader, though a practitioner of the weaker side, was able to deffeat all the other jedi? explain why the emperor needed vader. these questions come from just ANH, and are never answered throughout.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And it would have been interesting for those (God help them) viewers who watch this saga from the beginning
to see Li'l Annie's rise to the top, as a saga. A little adversity struggle would have been nice; and not so much driving the point home I HAVE ANNOINTED HIM, signed: George Lucas.

So the adversity is the life of a slave. Cute. I don't think he ever sang any spirituals about how being delivered (Which WOULD have ended up like that workin' out song.)