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i dont know where you get your delusions... midichlorains made easy!!!

#16 User is offline   Nicholas_Skywalker Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 06:11 AM

It did for me.
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#17 User is offline   darthsmash Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 06:32 AM

QUOTE (Helena @ Apr 28 2005, 08:49 PM)
Midichlorians are an incredibly crappy idea. They take all the romance and mysticism out of the Force, and having never being mentioned in the OT, they're simply yet another thing making the Prequels look inconsistent. Why the hell didn't Obi-Wan and Yoda ever mention them to Luke if they're that impoprtant?

Well Obi-Wan and Luke knew each other for what - a whole day? Two at most. They probably spent only a few hours in conversation together before he gets Vaderised on the Death Star. Only some of that time was spent talking about the nature of the force. It wouldn't make sense for Obi-Wan to instantly launch into some highly technical and confusing rant about the intricacies of midichlorian/force/sentient being interactions. More like "here's a lightsabre, don't cut your head off". As for Yoda we don't know if he did mention/explain it or not. It may have taken place offscreen like much of Luke's training undoubtedly did ie sabre- technique.
Finally they are not actually that important. Yes they would be important for a Jedi of the Old Republic to know about as he was probably always on the lookout for optential Jedi whilst tooling around the galaxy. But once you have someone, like Luke, who actually had the Midichlorian count to be a Jedi they become more or less irrelevant to teaching them how to use the force. Like explaining the workings of the internal combustion engine to someone you are trying to teach how to drive. Its academic.
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#18 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 06:42 AM

QUOTE (darthsmash @ Apr 28 2005, 12:32 PM)
Well Obi-Wan and Luke knew each other for what - a whole day? Two at most. They probably spent only a few hours in conversation together before he gets Vaderised on the Death Star. Only some of that time was spent talking about the nature of the force. It wouldn't make sense for Obi-Wan to instantly launch into some highly technical and confusing rant about the intricacies of midichlorian/force/sentient being interactions. More like "here's a lightsabre, don't cut your head off". As for Yoda we don't know if he did mention/explain it or not. It may have taken place offscreen like much of Luke's training undoubtedly did ie sabre- technique.

I'm sorry? What about the whole of ESB and RotJ? Both Obi-Wan (in his ghost form) and Yoda would have had plenty of time to explain to Luke about Midichlorians; it only took a few seconds for Qui-Gon to give Anakin a basic explanation in TPM. Something that fundamental to the study of the Force should have been explained onscreen.

QUOTE
Finally they are not actually that important. Yes they would be important for a Jedi of the Old Republic to know about as he was probably always on the lookout for optential Jedi whilst tooling around the galaxy. But once you have someone, like Luke, who actually had the Midichlorian count to be a Jedi they become more or less irrelevant to teaching them how to use the force. Like explaining the workings of the internal combustion engine to someone you are trying to teach how to drive. Its academic.

Yes, they are. If they tell you how to sense 'the will of the Force', and Old Republic Jedi carried Midichlorian-testing equipment with them wherever they went, clearly they are important. Luke is going to set up a new Jedi Order, which presumably means he'll have to know as much about the Force as possible - it makes no sense not to tell him about Midichlorians, especially if they can help him find possible candidates for Jedi training.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#19 User is offline   Nicholas_Skywalker Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 06:43 AM

also if your watching it from 1-6 for the first time the conversation with luke and obi wan will add another element to the force. I mentioned this earlier. We already saw the explanation of the midiclorians(howevag you spell it) we dont need to see it again. Maybe luke does and maybe he was told off screen and yes maybe he needs to know but we the viewers who are watching it dont because there have already heard the explanation in episode 1.

This post has been edited by Nicholas_Skywalker: 28 April 2005 - 06:44 AM

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#20 User is offline   darthsmash Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 06:44 AM

QUOTE (Helena @ Apr 28 2005, 09:11 PM)
Everything we learn about the Force in the OT follows on naturally from what we saw in the first movie. Putting this new information in the Prequels doesn't make sense, because if Midichlorians were so important they would have been mentioned in the OT. And why on earth would Qui-Gon need a 'Midichlorian count' to decide that Anakin is 'special'? Why couldn't he just sense that Anakin is extremely strong in the Force? We saw in ANH that Force-users can sense this automatically; they don't need any extra evidence!

Nobody seemed to sense that Leia was incredibly strong in the force. Particularly Vader when he was in the same room as her. Vader senses that "the force is strong with this one" with Luke in ANH only when he is doing his utmost to kill him and almost certainly using the force himself in his efforts to do so.
Qui-Gon seems to feel that Anakin is indeed strong in the force if admittedly more from hearing of his podracing abilities and so forth more than anything else (Still he does no worse than those OT examples above). The midichlorian count gives us a definitive idea of just how strong in the force Anakin is ie more than Yoda, more than anyone who has ever existed, "off the scale" etc => Chosen One.
To me at least it works better than Qui-Gon reeling and passing out as if smacked across the head by the sheer force strength of Boy-Anakin. And it saves years of pointless "How strong in the force is Anakin REALLY?" threads on the net. Theoretically at least.
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#21 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 06:53 AM

I just read Darthsmash's post on the previous page and gave up...

Why is this place being flooded with gushers all of a sudden?

Let us bitch about midichlorians in peace!
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#22 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 07:00 AM

QUOTE (Nicholas_Skywalker @ Apr 28 2005, 12:43 PM)
also if your watching it from 1-6 for the first time the conversation with luke and obi wan will add another element to the force. I mentioned this earlier. We already saw the explanation of the midiclorians(howevag you spell it) we dont need to see it again. Maybe luke does and maybe he was told off screen and yes maybe he needs to know but we the viewers who are watching it dont because there have already heard the explanation in episode 1.

Look, I don't know if you realise this, but the OT movies were made first -that's why they're referred to as the 'Original' Trilogy. Lucas should be writing the Prequels to fit in with the OT, not the other way round. And it still doesn't make sense for the explanation to be left out of the OT; if Qui-Gon could do it for Anakin then Yoda or Obi-Wan should have done it for Luke. I'm talking about what would make a coherent story, not what the audience 'needs' to see. Yes, two explanations would be redundant - but that's why the whole idea should have been left out in the first place.

QUOTE
Nobody seemed to sense that Leia was incredibly strong in the force. Particularly Vader when he was in the same room as her. Vader senses that "the force is strong with this one" with Luke in ANH only when he is doing his utmost to kill him and almost certainly using the force himself in his efforts to do so.
Qui-Gon seems to feel that Anakin is indeed strong in the force if admittedly more from hearing of his podracing abilities and so forth more than anything else (Still he does no worse than those OT examples above). The midichlorian count gives us a definitive idea of just how strong in the force Anakin is ie more than Yoda, more than anyone who has ever existed, "off the scale" etc => Chosen One.
To me at least it works better than Qui-Gon reeling and passing out as if smacked across the head by the sheer force strength of Boy-Anakin. And it saves years of pointless "How strong in the force is Anakin REALLY?" threads on the net. Theoretically at least.

Vader had presumably met Leia before, and the other Jedi characters already knew she was Force-sensitive but were trying to keep it from Luke, so it makes sense that none of them would mention it. Besides, as you yourself point out, Qui-Gon had already sensed Anakin's strenth in the Force - so why would he have to 'measure' it using scientific equipment? He wouldn't need to be 'reeling and passing out'; all he'd need to do is mention that Anakin is stronger in the Force than anyone he's met before, and possibly take him to the Council for confirmation. There's no need for a 'definitive' measure of how strong he is; before the PT there was never any suggestion that the Force could somehow be quantified numerically.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#23 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 07:05 AM

Movie Goer- Remember that talk we had about accepting the opinions of others if they're put forth in intelligent fashion?

QUOTE
I mentioned this earlier. We already saw the explanation of the midiclorians(howevag you spell it) we dont need to see it again. Maybe luke does and maybe he was told off screen and yes maybe he needs to know but we the viewers who are watching it dont because there have already heard the explanation in episode 1.


That's a really good argument. However I don't believe Lucas ever intended to do ep 1/2/3 until recently.

As for the force running in families that dosnt need to be explained by midichlorians, and indeed is not. midichlorians, being organisms, would not be transmitted from father to son in great quantity. That's just like saying "well, I have lice, so my son will have lice."

It's a simple matter of fate. The Skywalkers are important people and are fated to be strong with the force. This is mystical and cool and we can make up explanations about them having a genetic predisposition to it if we want but we dont have to.

The same thing happens with witches. A lot of shows have witchcraft running in families but they don't discuss how tiny microbes make people able to use magic do they? Of course not cuz that would be stupid!

And yes Midichlorians were necessary for the whole prophecy thing. But the prophecy was stupid. I could do without both of them. Or at least with a reworking of the prophecy.

What if the prophecy had been that Anakin would one day betray and murder the Jedi, so Mace and Yoda sent little annie into exile, where Obi Wan took him on later, only to have Anakin meet Mace and Yoda and fulfill the prophecy? Now that would be clever and it would be kind of an interesting twist that could carry through the movies and would make sense.

Or hell, why not just slightly alter the prophecy? Say that someone with the name skywalker would vanquish the Sith and save the galaxy? Then Obi Wan decides that Anakin is the one and trains him. That would at least be less confusing. And if this prophecy was so damn important why was it ignored in the OT along with the midichlorians?

However the current prophecy makes no sense whatsoever and treats Anakin as some sort of hero, as if he's supposed to be the hero of the six movie series. Luke is the hero. Anakin is the villain we're supposed to sympathize with. Lucas has mixed up his roles and thats caused a ton of problems.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 28 April 2005 - 07:11 AM

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#24 User is offline   Nicholas_Skywalker Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 07:11 AM

Uh I dont think that would have worked.... Plus it makes anakin a lot more important character and makes his turn to the dark side a lot more emotional and important also being the chosen one was one of the reasons why he turned to the dark side. If he had just some average Joe jedi then it would have been harder to believe he wipied out so many jedi and he was so much stronger, this way of him being the chosen one helps back up why his so strong.
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#25 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 07:13 AM

I'm sick of accepting the wrong opinions of others. I've had intelligent arguments with people in the past but as for prequel gushing, I'm tired and fed up with it.

I have no time for people who like the prequels and I honestly think there's something wrong with their tastes and quite possibly, their mental conditions.

When I came to this forum well over a year ago, it was a haven of sanity, a place where we could get away from that rubbish. And I've always found this, ALWAYS...

When there are no prequel gushers (Jariten excepted of course) on the forum, we have intelligent and civilised discussions. But when we DO have gushers, the forum just becomes chaotic. Thousands of new pointless threads are made, every second post contains the phrase "... is badass" and I can't stand it.

I know I've been warned to calm down time and time again. I know I shouldn't take it personally and I should try to control my temper. But I have a low tolerance for stupidity and whenever I encounter it, my blood boils... more out of frustration than anything else.

And yeah, I guess I'll get another message from Chefelf or Civilian about this.
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#26 User is offline   Lord Aquaman Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 07:15 AM

QUOTE (Just your average movie goer @ Apr 28 2005, 05:13 AM)
I'm sick of accepting the wrong opinions of others.  I've had intelligent arguments with people in the past but as for prequel gushing, I'm tired and fed up with it.

I have no time for people who like the prequels and I honestly think there's something wrong with their tastes and quite possibly, their mental conditions.

When I came to this forum well over a year ago, it was a haven of sanity, a place where we could get away from that rubbish.  And I've always found this, ALWAYS...

When there are no prequel gushers (Jariten excepted of course) on the forum, we have intelligent and civilised discussions.  But when we DO have gushers, the forum just becomes chaotic.  Thousands of new pointless threads are made, every second post contains the phrase "... is badass" and I can't stand it.

I know I've been warned to calm down time and time again.  I know I shouldn't take it personally and I should try to control my temper.  But I have a low tolerance for stupidity and whenever I encounter it, my blood boils... more out of frustration than anything else.

And yeah, I guess I'll get another message from Chefelf or Civilian about this.


I know how you feel, JYAMG.

Wanting solid evidence of a person's abilities is one thing, but undermining the philosophical value of the Force was just wrong.

This post has been edited by Lord Aquaman: 28 April 2005 - 07:16 AM

I am the Fisher King.

I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an obi-wan to go.
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#27 User is offline   Nicholas_Skywalker Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 07:23 AM

QUOTE (Just your average movie goer @ Apr 28 2005, 07:13 AM)
I'm sick of accepting the wrong opinions of others.  I've had intelligent arguments with people in the past but as for prequel gushing, I'm tired and fed up with it.

I have no time for people who like the prequels and I honestly think there's something wrong with their tastes and quite possibly, their mental conditions.

When I came to this forum well over a year ago, it was a haven of sanity, a place where we could get away from that rubbish.  And I've always found this, ALWAYS...

When there are no prequel gushers (Jariten excepted of course) on the forum, we have intelligent and civilised discussions.  But when we DO have gushers, the forum just becomes chaotic.  Thousands of new pointless threads are made, every second post contains the phrase "... is badass" and I can't stand it.

I know I've been warned to calm down time and time again.  I know I shouldn't take it personally and I should try to control my temper.  But I have a low tolerance for stupidity and whenever I encounter it, my blood boils... more out of frustration than anything else.

And yeah, I guess I'll get another message from Chefelf or Civilian about this.

Ive been going to these boards looking at them for a while and I have seen no so called "intelligent conversations" usaully all I see is stuff like: lucas sucks the prequals suck wow it would be cool if lucas died. Its like that every fricken day! Is it all your brain is capable of, midnless bashing? Tell me are you of the mindless dopes in shchool that picked on kids younger and smaller on them for no reason? because you certanly sound like one. And hey maybe im sick of your crap about bashing and im just trying to make an intelligent arguments but you cant take it.
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#28 User is offline   darthsmash Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 07:23 AM

QUOTE (Just your average movie goer @ Apr 28 2005, 09:53 PM)
I just read Darthsmash's post on the previous page and gave up...

Why is this place being flooded with gushers all of a sudden? 

Let us bitch about midichlorians in peace!


I'm sorry. Its just that I feel that I have a duty to spread wisdom and understanding wherever ignorance is found. wink.gif
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#29 User is offline   Lord Aquaman Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 07:25 AM

QUOTE (Nicholas_Skywalker @ Apr 28 2005, 05:23 AM)
Ive been going to these boards looking at them for a while and I have seen no so called "intelligent conversations" usaully all I see is stuff like: lucas sucks the prequals suck wow it would be cool if lucas died. Its like that every fricken day! Is it all your brain is capable of, midnless bashing? Tell me are you of the mindless dopes in shchool that picked on kids younger and smaller on them for no reason? because you certanly sound like one. And hey maybe im sick of your crap about bashing and im just trying to make an intelligent arguments but you cant take it.


The fact that you don't see the stupidity of the midichlorians is very sad.

And darthsmash, you're the one living in ignorance, not us. We see the stupidity of the prequels for what they are. You and Nick Skywalker don't.

Perhaps this page just isn't for the two of you.
I am the Fisher King.

I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an obi-wan to go.
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#30 User is offline   Nicholas_Skywalker Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 07:28 AM

QUOTE (Lord Aquaman @ Apr 28 2005, 07:25 AM)
The fact that you don't see the stupidity of the midichlorians is very sad.

And darthsmash, you're the one living in ignorance, not us. We see the stupidity of the prequels for what they are. You and Nick Skywalker don't.

Perhaps this page just isn't for the two of you.

hmm so your right and most people are wrong. And the mental conditions, hahaha! so your saying millions of people in the world are sufferning from mental illness because they enjoy a movie. THe last 2 prequals have been a huge succes in the cinema's and on dvd. Are they all mental the ones that watch and enjoy them?
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